Dragon Ball Super: November 2017 Schedule [Major Spoilers]

Posted on November 7, 2017

In October 2017, we saw our hero, Son Goku, take his power to new heights with Ultra Instinct Mode. Although it wasn’t enough to take down Universe 11’s Jiren, Goku survived and was even given some energy by his long-time enemy, Frieza. Wanting to take down Goku, even though he is in a weakened state, Universe 6’s Caulifla challenges our hero to a battle. Joining Caulifla is her protegee, Kale. As a team, they will do battle against Goku and take their own power to the next level in a Saiyan showdown! What will the result be? We’ll have to watch Dragon Ball Super in November 2018 to find out! Below is the schedule, including major spoilers!

  • November 05, 2017
    Dragon Ball Super Episode 114 – Intimidating Passion! The Birth of a New Super Warrior!!
    Vegeta continues his battle with Toppo, while Caulifla is able to help Kale regain control of her Berserker form. Caulifla and Kale battle Goku together and are able to hold him off. Meanwhile, Frieza is confronted by Katopesla, but they are interrupted by Goku’s battle with Caulifla and Kale. Frieza wants to fight Caulifla and Kale, but Goku insists that he will fight them himself. Frieza backs down and watches the fight. The three Saiyans resume their battle. After unsuccessfully attempting to use Instant Transmission as a strategy, Goku powers up to his Super Saiyan God form and easily overpowers the two of them. As Goku prepares to eliminate Caulifla and Kale with a powerful Kamehameha, it is revealed that the girls were given a pair of Potara earrings by Universe 6’s Supreme Kai Fuwa. They use the earrings and fuse to become a single being with immense power, who takes the name Kefla.

  • November 12, 2017
    Dragon Ball Super Episode 115 – Goku vs Kefla! Super Saiyan Blue Defeated?!
    Fightning Universe 7’s Goku, Universe 6’s Caulifla and Kale use the Potara Earrings – which the Kai’s use – to merge together. Facing Goku as Kefla, they overwhelm him with their super power. Witnessing this, the other universes wonder if they too should use Potara to merge and begin forming plans…
  • November 19, 2017
    Dragon Ball Super Episode 116 – The Comeback Omen! Ultra Instinct’s Great Explosion!!
    Through his extreme battle with Kefla, Goku once again utilizes “Ultra Instinct”, a power which even gods cannot easily obtain. As a result, Goku triggers a further power-up in his opponent Kefla!
  • November 26, 2017
    Dragon Ball Super Episode 117 – Grand Love Showdown! Androids vs Universe 2
    After using up all of his stamina with Ultra Instinct, Goku is targetted by Ribrianne and the other remaining warriors from Universe 2. As it looks like Goku is going to get hit by their attacks, Android 17 and Android 18 arrive just in time to help
  • December 03, 2017
    Dragon Ball Super Episode 118 – Accelerating Drama: A Universe Disappears…!
    No summary available at the moment.
  • December 10, 2017
    Dragon Ball Super Episode 119 – A New Victim from Universe 7! The True Ability of Universe 4!!
    No summary available at the moment.

Via Herms98

  • Mugetsu a’k’a SS4 Gohan

    Geezas

  • Alex Lowery

    Finally goodbye universe 2 thanks to the androids…

  • dbz

    I want to find out more information about ultra instinct I guess they will tell us more about the form in episode 116

  • Kaihedgie

    Damn, Kefla seems nigh unstoppable

  • Mad God Morgoth

    This isn’t new, Kelfa has been known about for awhile now.

  • Only When Vince McMahon Dies™

    Uhh Ultra Instinct vs Kefla is new

  • *Trafalgar D. Water Law*

    Goku’s going to win & Idk man jiren hasnt gone full power just yet

  • Bennet Jackson

    No I assume universe 6 because only four fighters from U6 fighting and it like kefla defeated by Goku.

  • Alex Lowery

    Pretty sure universe only has 3 left at the most and the androids are set to fight them an episode before another universe gets erased

  • Leo LeiGto

    I think kefla is going to get DQ. Shes going to beat up goku alot. Then Angel guy is going to obliterate her and universe 6 for cheating and then heal goku to full health lol. Ultra instinct Go-Go supersaiyan God vs jiren. He stands no chance.

  • Mad God Morgoth

    The episode aired already a few days ago, it was SSG Goku vs Kelfa. He didn’t use Ultra Instinct.

    Also we knew about Kelfa last week.

  • Only When Vince McMahon Dies™

    Dude in like 2 episodes he uses it, hence “spoiler”

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Lol if they have a higher base form then their power will be greater. Also did you watch? God stomped Ssj2 Caulifla. She couldn’t do crap. Kale could due to her berserker form which she controlled . Did you not notice Vegetables get caught off guard. Also SSj3 drains a ton of energy God doesn’t use much

    PL are messed up to a certain extent but others are consistent. If varies save your bitching for the real messed up ones.

  • Di

    these power ups are getting ridiculous, kafla is as strong as jiren and goku can transform again after losing all his power minutes ago for using that same transformation

  • Leo LeiGto

    I watched. And what I am referring to was the earlier Kael berserker vs goku blue. Where he actually got totally denied by her when she went berserker. No matter how strong her LSS is she should not be as strong as goku ssgod… I mean if broly showed up at 100% he should not be as strong as Super saiyan God blue .

  • randy191993

    Yeah, but a super saiyan raises your power by 50 times your power, and super saiyan 2 doubles that, and ss3 doubles that again. So SS2 is 100 x power, ss3 is 200 times power. So for the two to be stronger in SS2 than Goku is in SS3, they’d have to be at least 3 times as powerfull in base form than Goku is. And that’s just bullshit. Goku has absorbed god powers and spend his entire life and multiple deaths training. And two random gals from the street are supposedly three times as powerfull as he is?

  • randy191993

    SSG Goku vs Kefla was Episode 114. This news tell us that Episode 116 will be Ultra Instinct Goku vs Kefla. Do you even know what a spoiler is man?

  • Leo LeiGto

    This guy gets it. I love it when people start talking about powerlevel and try to defend super… you just CAN’T. It’s Maths lel.

  • Mad God Morgoth

    I don’t think you understand what I am saying.

    My point is that they are treating 114 like it’s new information despite the fact the episode has been around for over two days.

  • anonymous

    lol wtf are those multipliers? 2 cell jrs were able go head on against vegeta and trunks in their ascended ssj forms. If ssj2 is just going to double the strength 3 cell jrs would be more than enough to beat a gohan ssj2.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Sadly 3 warriors of powerlevel 10 are not equal to a power level 30… that’s not how powerlevels work.

  • anonymous

    See how frieza’s power levels work in dbz. First form was unable to beat vegeta (probably around 100000 since goku was only 180000 when he powered up for ginyu.) Then second form suddenly 10x (the episode title is power level 1million). Yet a piccolo upon merging with nail was able to beat him. (if i remember frieza said he was 500x i think so or maybe 500000x stronger (lol i dont remember check it) than nail.) Yet a simple namekian fusion was able to beat frieza whose powerlevel was 1 million. Hence imo cell jr example will certainly be correct.
    Btw I did acknowledge that his point is correct.

  • Bennet Jackson

    Oh I had no idea universe 2 have three fighters left anyway I’ll be glad that Ribrianne be erase because she is annoying.

  • Alex Lowery

    lol she is very annoying but i pity her because all the people that fat shame her for no apparent reason

  • Bennet Jackson

    Yeah but who knows it could universe 6 but we’ll see.

  • Alex Lowery

    true i’m not currently sure who actually has the lowest since they don’t focus on the lesser universes

  • Leo LeiGto

    I don’t understand what we are nitpicking at. Ss=5× normal. Ss2= 3times …. ss3= ss2x4… though the numbers are not correct we can clearly see that normal form is crazy weaker than super saiyan forms. Each transformation is exponentially stronger. Even if cell Jr had 20% of cells strength gohan ss2 ( gohans potential is a little higher) is way stronger than cell. That being said gohan ss2 cellsaga cannot will not EVER be stronger than goku ss3 buu saga. It’s just how forms are. I can understand Kael and caulifa are really strong but they were just taught how to go supersaiyan …. how strong are they?? Think of it this way… if you train lifting 100 lbs a 200 times you will get stronger… if a dude trains with 50000 lbs a day his base form is Superior to the 100lbs scrub. Goku has been fighting SS+ enemies almost dying and recovering all his life. And your telling me some bumpkin girls are stronger than his GOD form that’s he’s trained with the GOD of destruction to achieve? Get THE F#&*K OUT. Lol.

  • WTF?

    “super saiyan blue defeated?” more like super saiyan blue defeated again?

  • anonymous

    ???? did you even read my earlier answer, i was SUPPORTING you guys, just wanted to add that ssj multipliers are waay higher than what he said.

  • anonymous

    Lol, just realized, ssb never won. Against frieza, they needed whis(to revert time), in the U6 tournament ssb lost to hit, against zamasu, they cheated their way out of it by calling zeno, and now ToP we have UI to the rescue. #RIPSupersaiyanblue

  • Saiyan Soul

    >and nowhere in the anime/manga are those multipliers listed

    Are you implying that information has to be given in the manga and the anime to be relevant to the characters and the world? and no official guides and side material to them shouldn’t?

  • Ahtma

    Universe 6 is ranked above Universe 7 in Mortal Level, of course the people in it are going to be significantly stronger than what we’ve come to expect.

  • Ahtma

    Daizenshuu 7, published February 25, 1996. The databooks are valid sources of information.

  • Seventh

    The level of critical thinking in this fandom is abysmal, everyone does know that Goku isn’t anywhere near full power?

  • Seventh

    It’s based on how good hearted the mortals are in each universe, not power.

  • Seventh

    Kafla isn’t anywhere near Jiren’s full power. You could tell Jiren wasn’t trying against Goku, if he was equal. He would’ve had a a diff expression.

  • Ahtma

    Strength is a part of the ranking. It’s not purely one-sided, but it’s definitely not based on how good-hearted the mortals are.

  • Leo LeiGto

    They are random multipliers lol. PICK a number they illustrate the point they are not a perfect math. When you get to the millions in power levels 3x 1 mill cell Jr cannot beat a 3 Mil Powerlevel saibamen. Even with all their powers combined bro. they are each lacking in every Stat. HP,AttK, Def, Speed, Ki. 3 Mill Saibamen cleans the floor with them. If they were to FUSE. That’s another story.

  • Ahtma

    Numbers mean relatively nothing though. Power levels were introduced specifically to be shown that they were inconsistent and couldn’t be trusted.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    If you recall, Goku obtained Ultra Instinct when he was running on fumes.

    I reckon the same thing will happen now as well.

    Especially since he’s using Blue whilst trying to recover his stamina.

  • Wally West : Rebirth

    Jiren wasn’t using his full power against UI Goku ( version 1), bruh.

  • lolcatz6657

    If frieza didn’t resort to blowing up the planet, SSB goku would have won. Heck, he was most likely about to.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    You seem to be forgetting that Goku is worn out. Or are you just ignoring stuff to complain about two new characters.

    Someone seems to forget that everyone in the Tournament is in the top of their respective universes. So they aren’t just two random girls from the street lol. Me thinks you have a problem with women. Where’s your complaints about Cabba, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, etc?

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Also we don’t know Kale’s multipliers nor do we know if their multipliers are the same in U6. Caulifla and Kale are far stronger than Goku was when he reached those transformations. Kale is now what’s called a True Legendary Super Saiyan so I think she has a reason.

    Also SSJ drains enermous amounts of energy God is the wiser choice to fight he jumped straight ahead to save energy plus Kale is stronger than SSJ3 enough to make Vegeta pause long enough to get caught of guard.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    I don’t think you did. That’s your opinion she shouldn’t be, it’s a form that gives a ridiculous power boost. Me thinks you have a problem with strong women as I don’t see you complaining about Toppo, Hit, Jiren, Dyspo or the like.

    Insults? You must not have much to your argument if that’s what you resort to.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Last thing Caulifla wasn’t stronger than SSJ3. She even remarks about Goku is this really the same SSj2.

    Quit ignoring details and just deal that the people in this tournament are the cream of the crop. We have no clue what Caulifla and Kale have gone through before this. Yes we have seen Goku fight and train but I don’t hear you bitching about Jiren who utterly stomped and tanked everything Goku through at him even UI wasn’t enough to do any serious damage and he wasn’t serious. Where’s your complaints about that? Just go ahead and admit because they are women you have a problem. Don’t see you complaining about Goten or Trunks either.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Also sorry for all the replies. Disqus doesn’t show the edits like it should so it leads to stupid amounts of reply chains.

  • Yomi

    This happens EVERY time there are spoilers.
    Just gotta wait it out and let them get worked up over new spoilers.

    Month after month, the cycle continues.

  • Yomi

    Anyone who thinks Kefla is as strong as Jiren is literally 5 years old.

  • Ryumancer

    SSB Goku went back down to base Goku and got pierced by a laser. Vegeta’s the one that nearly finished Frieza off before the planet got destroyed.

  • Ryumancer

    How is a pathetic universe like Universe 2 the second strongest out of all the universes participating in the tournament? It makes no sense, they seemed like total pushovers. Even Ribrianne is getting by on luck ALONE. Those mortal levels seem almost more bullcrap than power levels. XD

  • Ryumancer

    SS3 is 4 times stronger than SS2.

    Evidenced by an image from a guide I referenced below:

    pm1.narvii.Com/6595/467d101111d134eddcc04f816713094ca6f1a2fc_hq.jpg

  • dbz

    goku was slightly over powering jiren in ultra instinct but others say jiren hasn’t gone full power yet but who knows

  • Leo LeiGto

    The numbers brought sanity to a very complicated system akira introduced but never explained much. I don’t really know who the credit goes to for messing up so bad… anime design team probably… everyone is as strong as SSB and no one can differentiate the powerlevels… it makes for a pretty damn boring anime in my opinion.

  • Rich Garriques

    you must be blind , did you see the same episode I did? cause I saw jiren counter everything he was doing and fighting just like him. it is only until he hit jiren that jiren showed him he is still outclassed and knocked him right out. kefla will beat super saiyan god goku into instinct mode again. goku is being outclassed by a lot of his opponents this series and you goku dependent loving morons don’t seem to see that.

  • Rich Garriques

    so a universe is pathetic now? that sounded mighty oppressive.

  • Rich Garriques

    anyone who thinks kelfa isn’t strong is a 5 year old women hater. seriously why are you morons so offended that a women can get to the same level so fast. maybe because they aren’t weak. they were born before man and are birthers of the human race. they re already gods

  • Rich Garriques

    yours must be lost , sine when did not being at full power ever stop goku from winning? , you petty fanboys are making the excuses not him. hes having a hard time right now with very powerful opponents. I think you guys should ease up with the comments about kelfa only beating goku because hes warn out right now which isn’t the case since he seems to be jumping from one form to another every 10 mins.

  • Rich Garriques

    what baffles me a lot is the almost deplorably stupid comments about califa and kale , it is like certain fans are on this imaginary narrative where califa and kale weren’t warriors and did not have their own battles and adventures before they entered that universe tournament with goku and his friends. it almost comes off as if the hate is directed at them for just being FEMALES and beating the snot out of goku in a short amount of time. a lot of people don’t seem to understand the principles of universes every universe is different in balance just because goku and vegeta are the strongest in their universe doesn’t make them the strongest in all universes. they don’t run the solar system.

  • Rich Garriques

    explains why jiren had to step in when kale went into rage brolly mode. I think jiren is well aware of their potential and this will be proven even further with fusion since she is the legendary super saiyan.

  • Rich Garriques

    you re really stupid , califa is a stronger then the average super saiyan 2 and kale is another level she isn’t super saiyan 2 her power is probably past super saiyan 3 in rage mode. I think you forgot when goku used super saiyan blue kamahamaha on kale and she walked right through it in rage mode and beat his face in.

  • Rich Garriques

    how are they two random girls from the street ? you sound stupid. they re from a different universe and had their own battles they never even knew goku existed. califa is probably the goku in her universe.

  • lolcatz6657

    Then that’s normal goku, not SSB goku lol. Hence my point.

  • Di

    so? he is supossed to be stronger than a god of destruction so even if he is not using all his power he is op af

  • Di

    he obtained it cause of the genki dama and the fact that he almost died

  • Di

    we dont even know how much of his power he was using, beerus didnt even use 20% of his power and he was all serious and sh*t while fihhting goku

  • Raftleon

    you got to think about it tho. jiren’s been reacting to kale for quite some time, like he’s taking interest in fighting her. now kefla shows up and apparently has “new” form… a 1hko incoming again by one punch jiren?
    (i don’t get you know who tho lol.)

  • Raftleon

    dang… so thanks to the ladies using fusion, EVERYONE is thinking about using it lol.

    i like these ladies alot (mostly kale) but if those two are already that powerful with just ssj against blue then whatever coming next will be Op like mad.

    but aren’t they already ssj3 lvl in strength or beyond with normal form?

    to be honest I’m loving super right (not because of the female saiyans) not all the time we see goku pushed like this.

    so speculations were right about goku using them to obtain UI again and.

    seth and geek are going to have a field day with these spoilers lol.

  • BudokaiLimit

    you idiot the solar system is smaller than a galaxy go to school then u can watch anime

  • Leo LeiGto

    I love how you can’t even English. That’s what I said buddy. That gokussB got owned by Kael. Goku God mode should not fight krilin, gohan, piccolo, Android 17. That’s silly. It makes them seem like they are on par with Super saiyan Blue. They are not. Kale Lss is also not as strong as ssblue even though that scene happened. That scene corroborated the fact that powerlevels are NONexistant in this new CrapAnimeVersion of DBS. Your blabbering is moot. Goku is weak right now because he wasted all his energy and was kaiokenx20 vs jiren.. even so he’s way stronger than Kale.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol insults. Saying someone is “bitching” is not an insult? Choose your words more carefully son. Work on your troll game buddy. Inflammatory language starts fights. L2P BRO.

  • Larry E. Powe Jr.

    ep 118 might be a spoiler of Universe 2 being erased.

  • dbz

    jiren counter goku when he was using his other forms but goku slightly over power jiren when he was using ultra instinct only when goku ran out of that tranformtaion was when jiren blew him back

  • anonymous

    Doesn’t matter. The fight isn’t a game ssb vegeta died, ssb goku was helpless until whis reversed time. They would have won but they lost. Technically both lost since goku even took a senzu bean.

  • anonymous

    I never even brought up anything about dbs let alone kale and caulifla. When did I even say that kale and caulifla are stronger?? My only point was that his numbers were clearly wrong.

  • anonymous

    valid only if they don’t contradict the anime.

  • anonymous

    yes

  • Yomi

    Kefla is not as strong as Jiren.
    Anyone who finds that statement sexist is 5 years old.

  • anonymous

    ^ triggered feminist lol.
    as for your answer they may have had their battles but ssj is still ssj. 40 hrs ago they weren’t even super saiyans and now upon fusing they are stronger than a super saiyan god?!. so even vegito in his base is stronger than a super god?

  • anonymous

    where is it mentioned that U2 is the second strongest? I must have missed.

  • anonymous

    Logically speaking goku supersaiyan god need not even warm up to beat kefla. kefla should be around the same power as buu-saga vegito.
    But now these episode titles.. *sigh*.

  • anonymous

    other stats have no significance if it’s a clash of energy blasts that’s going on.

  • anonymous

    you called @disqus_l1IOsMkFyw:disqus an idiot. you even highlighted it using PS.
    You told me to gtfo (expanded and in block) when I never even talked about U6 saiyans in any previous reply. My only points were about super saiyan multipliers and you brought up kale and caulifla into your reply and told me to gtfo. You assume a lot of things in replies unnecessarily. Change your attitude.

  • Ahtma

    *manga, the anime is the one riddled with holes. And no, it doesn’t.

  • best xv player xD

    Lol Come on guys there are so many mistakes in super about power lvls these weeks thats its not worth arguing about it xd its just stupid on Z it was okey but super is a mess whit that men

  • blabla

    amen brother (also huge plot holes in regards to power lvls etc anyways so) . .

  • blabla

    un6 probably, goku taking kefla out (with the u.in.mode on) = no uni6 warriors on the arena=bb

  • Ryumancer

    MasakoX explains this is great detail in his video on the subject. The four universes with the highest mortal levels overall are exempt from the tournament, you likely knew this already. They were:

    -Universe 1
    -Universe 12
    -Universe 5
    -Universe 8

    The hierarchy is in that particular order. Now this would be the hierarchy of all the universes participating in the tournament:

    -Universe 11 (Jiren’s universe)
    -Universe 2 (Ribrianne’s universe, WTF?!)
    -Universe 3 (the one with the robots and nerdy Supreme Kai)
    -Universe 10 (Gowasu’s universe)
    -Universe 4 (Quitela the mouse God of Destruction’s universe)
    -Universe 6 (Champa, Hit, Cabba, Caulifila, and Kale’s universe)
    -Universe 7 (THIS ONE NEEDS NO INTRODUCTION, LOL)
    -Universe 9 (the one with the wolves and ANNOYING Supreme Kai)

    The link to the mentioned video is here:
    youtube.Com/watch?v=ughMlR7cm8Q

  • blabla

    obviously he was testing her as he himself said: i will release more power now, for F*CK sake watch the episode with zamasu To see his real power

  • blabla

    you f.stupid or what? both learn ssj form from the un6 little dude who had just Learned it from vegeta you can’t be f.serious with statements like that, you must be attempting to troll (or else please; really really don’t have children, for serious) pls

  • Serena Bergstrom/Punkocalypse

    I found spoilers that say point blank goku super saiyan blue gets stomped BUT since super saiyan 3 was teased 2 episodes ago counting 114, it only makes sense for KEFLA to go super saiyan 3 green only to be eliminated by ULTRA INSTINCT OMEN GOKU so the girls get ss3 as a fusion aka the gotenks treatment only to be eliminated by UIO GOKU and obviously get erased unless the universe 6 namekians bring more to the fight than we’re seeing and with both17 and 18 taking universe 2 out all that’s left is universe 3 and universe 11!

  • Ryumancer

    That’s beyond stupid. Official guides explain the rules of a fictional world when the manga or anime doesn’t explain them fully. Denying them is denying reason altogether.

  • Ryumancer

    Meh…I guess. But Goku wore Frieza down and Vegeta was picking up the scraps, so to speak.

  • lolcatz6657

    That’s because goku let his guard down and intentionally deactivated SSB. So he didn’t actually lose with SSB, so to speak.

  • anonymous

    I am not denying them altogether. But it is true that they have many errors, most of them are own theories of the guidebook writers. If those theories violate the anime’s logic then it is not stupid do deny those theories.

  • Ryumancer

    As true as that is, that didn’t quite deflate what I just said. XD

  • Ryumancer

    It’s an OFFICIAL guide though. SSJ3 always takes longer to transform to than SSJ1 or SSJ2 because of the massive upsurge in energy. There was a reason besides Saiyan pride that you never saw SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta gang up on Kid Buu, merely doubling their strength wouldn’t have worked. They needed a singular “vessel” of power with quadruple the strength. And SSJ2 Goku could never use Kaioken if he wanted to, it would’ve killed him. That one time he used it on Pikkon was just filler.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    And it all happened when he basically had no energy left.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Hm well in other topics did anyone seen thor?

  • Only When Vince McMahon Dies™

    Namekians still

  • Only When Vince McMahon Dies™

    So in a way Ultra Instinct is more a defense mechanism than an actual form?

  • anonymous

    By cell saga goku was able to control his super saiyan form just as his base form (he could eat, sleep etc for 10 days). If he can go kaioken times 20 in his base, why can he not go atleast kaioken times 10 in his ssj form?

  • PurexedSolitude;

    That’s what it seems like for now.

    But I think it will come to be as natural as Super Saiyan in due time.

  • Only When Vince McMahon Dies™

    So for now Goku has to accept nothingness but his natural instinct is to fight that nothingness…..thus Ultra Instinct? Interesting.

    But I wonder if Goku can one day integrate Ultra Instinct with Blue or any of his other forms

  • anonymous

    It’s based on purely the number of mortals (number of live beings) no strength is involved.

  • disqus_z7oJUkLJVV

    Because literally no one in this entire series has gone from zero transformations to the rivaling the greatest powers in the universe in 40hrs. Ever. it’s damn ridiculous. If they had done any significant work for this astronomical increase in power besides getting a little jealous and having a tingly feeling NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN. But they didn’t so hear we are. I would have loved them having strong Saiyan Woman of course they should be strong their saiyans!! but handing them as the writers stated “limitless” power basically because they wanted them to be strong instead of a proper growth is just bs writing

  • disqus_z7oJUkLJVV

    actually it did. because Vegeta lost not because of SSB but because he let his guard down it’s not the power of SSB that lost either of them the fight they lost because their mental weaknesses got exploited.

  • Yosura

    Its been a year since the tournament between U6 and U7

  • disqus_z7oJUkLJVV

    it won’t be they confirmed Kefla gets another power up when Goku goes UI and he’s going to have to use all his stamina again just to either barely eck out a win or hold her off till they defuse. Either is ridiculous but who cares not like im watching it anymore lmao

  • Ahtma

    It ranks the development of the mortals but not specifically population. Strength is a factor in it.

  • Ryumancer

    No it didn’t. Goku still wore Frieza down and Vegeta was picking up the scraps.

  • anonymous

    any backup for your claim?

  • anonymous

    It’s only his theory. Linking development to strength doesn’t seem correct at all based on the events of the anime. Mortal level reflects a healthy population of a universe, where creation and destruction are properly checked.

  • SOLOmio

    1 WEEK ago! Good Super hero movie. Just didn’t like what happen to the warrior Three.

  • anonymous

    You are a pseudo-feminist….an idiot who probably thinks men are not equal but inferior to women.
    wtf is your “women born before man and are birthers of human race” preaching?
    go to some religious website for this nonsense. You certainly are a 5 yr old.
    Go school yourself about “evolution”…… oh before that educate yourself about how humans biologically reproduce.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    It was a funny action movie, but with zero emotional drama

  • Saiyan Soul

    >Pretty much every guide is full of errors and cannot be trusted
    The super exciting guide pretty much confirms the multipliers since Toriyama himself comments on the multiplier for the super saiyan transformation and says it’s a fifty fold increase in strength while he was envisioning it to be actually a ten fold but it wouldn’t make sense cause Goku was already going x20 when facing Frieza and Freiza’s power at the time was even more exponential.
    The same guide doesn’t contradict his words and places SS at 50 times normal strength and goes on to place the increased multipliers for ss2 and ss3 respectively, so it’s not an error nor can you say it can’t be trusted.

    Your whole point about valid side material falls apart since the guide I pointed out actually has Toriyama’s interview about the SS multiplier in it.
    Speaking of the anime for dbs thing? the anime isn’t canon, only certain parts of it is canon, Toriyama only gives outlines to Toei and Toyataro that fill up the spaces inbetween, what’s canon is the times that both intersect and have the same scenario at times.
    DBS is a poorly written story, I’ll agree on that, the anime is pretty bad because the writers for each episode keep getting shifted about and there’s no consistency between them, the manga atleast tries to make sense of things.

    That’s a complete double standard you have about guides then.

  • Ryumancer

    It’s not really a theory. Strength is a factor at the very least. However, at the same time, what you said is also a factor. U7 doesn’t even have 30 populated planets yet. Probably why they rank so low on the seeding chart.

  • Ryumancer

    If strength were not a factor, the Tournament of Power wouldn’t have even been a thing.

  • asvpxjase

    Bro, the moment you said Kefla and Jiren are similar in strength you are deemed an idiot so just save face, stop replying and realize your mistake to even assume such NONSENSICAL RUBBISH!!

  • Koibito888

    Most of the scaling makes sense when people stop holding on to preconceived notions.

    Krillin for example, Goku was in Blue but not at full power (not that stupid ‘Goku can lower his power as much as he wants’ bullcrap that some fans try to explain, just not at like max power in Blue) and Krillin’s power up would bring him up to stupidly high levels. He was condensing his Ki, he was literally holding in Ki and focusing it to a point – Holding in Ki and raising it is literally what makes God Ki happen. Not that Krillin is using God Ki but holding in/condensing Ki is now established to create huge power differences. Krillin got a huge buff and everyone’s pissy because they wanna believe Krillin can’t get stronger even through new means that line up logically.

  • Di

    who said he had no energy? he just was tired af

  • Di

    oh my, we have a salty fanboy here, you dbstards are the dumbest kind of db fans

  • asvpxjase

    I’m not a fanboy nor am I salty. You’re just an idiot for even thinking Jiren and Kefla are similar in power. That is all. Save face and stop replying. You have proved you’re an idiot multiple times in the comments and this reply just displays your idiocy is limitless.

  • Di

    “I’m not afanboy, you’re stupid for pointing the flaws of my perfect animu” f*cking weeb

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol what nonsense are you spouting now? No one cares what your comment about the multipliers was. It was not even in gear with what was being talked about. Go correct someone’s grammar. I like your attitude.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol you lost me the second you said Krilin vs Goku SSB. FAIL. No! False! everything here is fake news. Krillin no matter how much training he went through would die by just being around SSB. PERIOD.

    Krillin is not even as strong as SS. Period. Period.blood. lol.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Haha yea. I 100% agree. The people working on the anime have never seen DBZ.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Emotional drama is for tools. One of the best Marvel movies yet. Unlike Marvel Comics. Keep SJW’s out of Marvel Movies PLz.

  • Koibito888

    Then it doesn’t take much for you to get lost does it?

    First off “Krillin no matter how much training he went through would die by just being around SSB. PERIOD.” well clearly not because that’s not what happened so you know, you’re wrong.

    There you go, ‘Krillin can never be as strong as’ yeah everyone needs to stop with that thinking that just because someone is that character that they can’t ever get stronger no matter what new powerup is introduced, that is an incredibly dumb way to look at things and it actually makes no sense.

    Look, you want ‘real news’ we’ll here’s the facts without me connecting them:

    Krillin got a power boost

    Krillin got a power boost based on holding in his Ki and releasing it at a point.

    Krillin could spar with a held back but still Blue Goku.

    Goku and Vegeta getting stronger was entirely based on holding in their Ki.

    Those are canon facts and are true to DBZ now no matter how much you wanna argue, thems the facts now so put em together and you got your answer. If you don’t want to believe it it doesn’t matter, it’s canon and your uninformed opinion doesn’t really change that.

  • Koibito888

    Why?

    Base Cabba can match base Vegeta, U6 Saiyans are more powerful and at the moment of fusion the fact that Kale and Caulifla can even fight current SSJ Goku means they are stronger than Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta, their fusion should be stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto.

  • Koibito888

    Not only that but U6/U7 tournament base Cabba matched base Vegeta’s power, these Saiyans are freaking strong and people just need to accept that instead of making excuses for Goku.

  • Koibito888

    That’s what ‘out of energy’ means in DBZ. This ain’t Naruto, they don’t have Ki reserves that when they run out there’s just none left. The body produces as much Ki as stamina you have, if you’re tired and recover for a second long enough to produce more Ki you can produce more Ki. It’s not a container like Chakra it’s like a muscle, it can keep working till it breaks, and this was true even before King Kai directly compared Ki usage to a muscle in Super.

  • Koibito888

    Ultra Instinct is a technique more than a form, it’s literally more Kaioken than SSJ.

    The power boost came from his energy being compressed by the Spirit Bomb and is separate entirely from Ultra Instinct which is the technique of ‘moving without thinking’.

    The power boost will likely just become Goku’s new base power, I mean without Spirit Bomb you don’t even got the cool aura it’s just Goku in base with silver eyes. Goku might need to power up to full to activate Ultra Instinct or Ultra Instinct only appears when in a full power state or something tying the two together and making it look like a power boost but the difference will still be there.

    Like Beerus going Ultra Instinct likely does not give him a huge power boost because he doesn’t have a Spirit Bomb condensing his energy, he’d just get a huge reaction/speed boost.

  • Koibito888

    It’s not silly though. First off it doesn’t ‘make them seem like they are on par with Blue’, none of the fights even hinted that they were equal to Goku. Krillin was only holding his own getting beaten still but his powerup was literally based on holding in his Ki which is the same exact method to God Ki (no Krillin does not have God Ki but my point is holding in your energy at all creates huge unimaginable power boosts, let Krillin get stronger with logical methods damn), Gohan still got owned by Blue Goku so I don’t know what you mean there, Piccolo had no moment of matching Goku, and 17 makes the most sense. Dude Frieza’s powerup worked because Frieza was that strong without ever training, 17 was just built that way, HE’S LITERALLY BETTER FRIEZA lol.

    People need to stop with the Berserk thing. Berserk is a new form and is held to no standard and can be as strong as the plot needs it to be. It’s a brand new form and we don’t know it’s strength and clearly it’s huge enough to clear gaps.

  • Koibito888

    But they weren’t stronger than SSJ3 in SSJ2 what are you talking about?

  • Koibito888

    I doubt that the regular SSJ multipliers are different between universes that’d be pretty dumb but yes Kale’s form is a new form and as such it’s multiplier can be anything and it can be as strong as the plot needs it to be without it being illogical.

  • samehada

    That still doesn’t make any sense. Can base Krillin spar with SSJ Goku or even base Goku?
    If he can’t even do that then even if he could do a mock version of Goku’s god mode tech, he shouldn’t be able to spar with Goku in god (red) let alone blue.

  • Koibito888

    That just IS base Krillin it’s not a form it’s a heightened level of Ki just like base Goku after getting God Ki, and then he trained for a bit. And so yeah he probably can now. Still lose of course but he could still spar with a held back Blue Goku and lose. I dont get what’s so hard to understand about that.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    So the death 0f his closet friends or their world being gone shouldn’t have ant emotional attachments

  • samehada

    What’s hard to understand is that:
    a) Base Krillin doesn’t (and shouldn’t) stand a chance against base Goku.
    b) Base Krillin doesn’t stand a chance of keeping up with super saiyan Goku.
    c) Krillin’s “heightened level of Ki” is a slop or “inferior” version of Goku’s god mode. Thus, a) dictates that his chances against Goku are even lower that in a).
    d) Blue is Super Saiyan state while in god mode, So b) and c) dictate that Krillin’s chance are non existent against Goku in blue. It doesn’t matter how much Goku holds back. It’s impossible for Krillin to give him damage.

    Edit: Basically, The only way this would’ve ever made the slightest bit of sense is if it was possible for base Krilliin to spar and keep up with SSJ Goku, which takes the advantage of “holding Ki” from the both of them. You KNOW that’s impossible for Krillin. It would be a miracle if he could even keep up with base Goku.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol. You need to stay away from the koolaid bro. Anyone that has seen DBZ knows that what they are doing on Super makes no sense. It’s cool that you think krilin is super strong because they dun goofed and showed goku fighting him while transformed… krilin is not strong. Never will even touch the bottom tier of SS. Strongest human is Tien and his ki control is way better than krillin. But alas! They will both continue to be weaker than SS. Tien you could argue a tiny bit. But no stronger…

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol don’t worry man. Kobi has no idea what he’s talking about. He’s too drunk.

  • Leo LeiGto

    TRIO DE DANGERS will super saiyan rose again and take back the DBS crown.

  • Leo LeiGto

    This is fake news. All forms are held to a standard. And in DB super they destroyed past explanations for everything and now they are stuck making up dumb $hit trying to make ends meet. Lol. Don’t worry my friend. When the manga releases and people complain enough about the garbage that DBSuper is we will have our remake.

  • Koibito888

    Except a new form is not. A new form can have any multiplier it wants. We don’t know what the multiplier is and so it can be anything and clearly for Berserk it’s huge.

  • Koibito888

    Lol except they didn’t just goof and accidentally show Krillin fighting Blue Goku they gave Krillin a power up and purposely showed that power up to be able to spar with Blue Goku and still lose, but spar with him.

    And whatever I’m talking about holding in Ki? Lol do you even watch enough Super to criticize it? That was literally the explanation they gave to God Ki when they first learned how to do it on their own in Whis’ staff which is what lead to them learning Blue. They established holding in your Ki and raising it to be what makes God Ki, if you’re going to criticize something then actually know what you’re talking about.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Berserker is not new. Kael is a copy of BROLY. It’s called LSS and it’s roughly as strong as SS2.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Bro. Fact is $hitty half baked explanations about Krillin fighting Goku while in SSB, even if Akira Toriyama himself, said those same words they are blasphemy and will never be cannon. So save your electricity and save Data on the internet because we all have enough fake news.

  • Koibito888

    A and B don’t matter, it does not matter where Krillin was before this power up. As for D, you’re right, his chances are nonexistant, did you watch the episode? Because 18 literally said that. And he also didn’t damage Goku in their fight, best he did was nearly ring out base Goku and could at least not be instantly outdone by SSJ with his new power up.

    Krillin can keep up with base Goku and nearly push him off but not really damage much, stand with SSJ and not be insta-stomped, and can spar with but has no chance against Blue.

    So in fact the exact way that you said it would make sense is exactly what happened I see no problem here.

  • Koibito888

    Too bad for you canon isn’t your decision and Super is canon so everything that happened was too, your saltiness doesn’t change that. So you can either go on whining about how Krillin can’t get stronger for no other reason than he’s Krillin (not a valid argument) and resorting to trying to sound quipy instead of providing actual points, OR you can try to actually use your brain, no skin off my back either way and either way still canon.

  • Koibito888

    That literally does not matter. Broly is non canon, it doesn’t matter what his power with LSSJ is, Kale’s Berserk is not to be held to a standard to something that did not happen in the canon of DBZ. And as for Broly him self he was busting stars at minimum, galaxies at most, and neither of those are the level of Cell Saga SSJ2’s so Broly’s power in of itself is inconsistent and not to be taken seriously, let alone be a standard for something in a completely separate canon.

    And what, broke potara because they finally gave a better explanation for Vegetto’s split than ‘bad air in Buu’s stomach’? Cry more jeez. Still just as powerful just with a time limit that Vegetto had already anyway, it effects nothing.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Tired=no energy

  • PurexedSolitude;

    I doubt that it’s necessary to combine it with any of his forms, aside from base.

    I mean, we saw that Ultra Instinct easily overshadowed any of his other power ups.

    Though, it is instinct so I don’t think it’s impossible. He can integrate his instinct with Blue, possibly like he does with Kaioken.

  • actionmanrandell

    the universes in dragon ball are extremely small.

  • actionmanrandell

    you don’t understand the nature of ultra instinct. it allows him to constantly evolve himself. goku was in base mode when he was using ultra and it allowed him to match jiren and every second they fought Goku was one step closer to winning, jiren didn’t overpower ultra goku could only maintain ultra as long as he had a power source for his depleted body

  • actionmanrandell

    no strength isn’t involved at all. if it was than the lower number of populated plants would greatly raise their mortal level

  • Di

    you can be tired but still have energy left, thats how they recover

  • swiss

    i just watch this for the fights,(they are mostly forgettable) the only good ones was with black goku and zamasu after that
    everything is a mess,from story,power levels, heck i even hate goku now for willing to risk his own universe just for fighting on this damn tournament.

  • Saiyan Soul

    It was either Goku reminding Zeno of the tournament or watching as he and his universe was erased without any resistance.
    It’s not his fault nor does the blame lie on him, Vados even goes to the trouble of pointing it out.

  • Saiyan Soul

    It’s not that he’s drunk, he just has this preconceived notion going on in his head that the anime can’t do anything wrong.
    Super is hot garbage, enjoyable but garbage.

  • Ryumancer

    Plants aren’t “mortals”. -_-

    Mortals are humanoid sentient beings. Plants don’t fall into this category. Who even thinks plants would be involved?

    Secondly, part of development is being able to defend yourself and your loved ones so you can thrive, hence where strength comes in. Dragonball is ALL ABOUT strength. This tournament is called the Tournament of POWER, which is a test of STRENGTH. How do people not see this crap?

  • Ryumancer

    No they aren’t. Where are you getting this crap?

  • Jeff Linville

    Another power up for Kefla??? Goku has trained for YEARS and these two girls (who couldn’t even Super Saiyan a few episodes ago) are learning all his tricks in seconds

  • Leo LeiGto

    Its actually not cannon. Goku never said he was fighting anyone at 100% he is also very good at suppressing his key and matching his opponents strength. Goku as SSB can suppress his key enough to match a weak person like Krillin, Gohan, Roshi, Tien, Yamcha etc. That does not mean they are as strong as him or even near him in strength. good luck buddy.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Krillin has not had a power up. …. Lol. BRO.

  • Koibito888

    Ummm… Did you just miss the episode where Krillin learned to hold in his Ki and got a powerup off it or what?

  • Koibito888

    It’s not my decision but I’m not the one doing mental backflips trying to say Goku can get as weak as that. First off Goku can hold back but he can’t be weaker than SSJ or base form in Blue that doesn’t make any sense and God Ki is made by ‘holding in your Ki AND raising it’, actual quote, so if Goku lowered his power enough the God Ki would shut off he does not go from SSJ to Blue and gain the ability to be weaker than his prior forms.

    Even 1% of Blue Goku should be too strong this idea that Goku can weaken himself that much is a terrible excuse to not accept that other characters can get stronger.

    By the way none of this means that they are near him in strength and that was never my point, even with Krillin he like pushed Blue Goku’s kamehameha for a second to which Goku just exerted a bit of force and pushed it back easily, 18 said the power gap was something Krillin could do nothing about, he only got stronger to be able to spar with base Goku, survive against SSJ enough to make Goku go Blue, and then be able to clash without dying instantly with Blue but still be horridly outclassed. Krillin got stronger and he can do better against Goku but no he is not ‘near his full strength’ or anything so yeah, that was never the point and has little to do with what we’re actually talking about.

    So again, Krillin getting a power up through the same method as Goku and Vegeta did without going full God Ki, very much should skyrocket his power to base Goku and hanging with SSJ (held back SSJ but still) and then not insta die standing next to Blue, that is all perfectly reasonable. Doesn’t mean Krillin is near Blue Goku’s strength but no, Goku was not making himself weaker than SSJ and base form in Blue just to fight Krillin lol.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    I find it funny for those who still watch keep complaining about the plot and so on, when they should be use to its conditions.

  • Only When Vince McMahon Dies™

    Yeah exactly, plus the 4 universe who aren’t participating must have people stronger than Jiren so an Ultra Instinct with Blue will be insane

  • Leo LeiGto

    Beerus does it. Goku can do it too. When goku got out of the time chamber after cell he had to practice not breaking silver wear and stuff. no back-flips. Back-flips would be saying that KRILIN has achieved greater power than Vegeta did in the hyperbolic time chamber in a couple of days you. lol.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Bro dont go writing fake bibles. Kaioken is not like UI. SS is not like UI. Whis basically explains UI in the beginning of the show. its literally ULTRA instinct. we dont know if you can super saiyan while in it or if it will be more of a “you unlocked your hidden potential all the way” type of thing.

    Kaioken exponentially increases the persons energy. we dont know what UI does yet …

  • SAB

    He basically gave a hope for U7 to survive. If it weren’t for the ToP, all lower ranked universes (in terms of mortal level) would’ve been eliminated just like that.

  • SAB

    They turned it into a kid’s… no a toddler’s show and so decided to have more colors.

  • Leo LeiGto

    That’s not a significant powerup. Lol. Krilin ki control < every other character. Trying to make krillin relevant is like saying Yamcha is back and he's learned to control his ki now. He's still reaaaaaaaly weak compared to any fighter. Krilin< cabba < picollo < gohan < vegeta …

  • Leo LeiGto

    Say your starving and DBZ was your delicious thanksgiving feast. Now every week you watch TV you expect the same delicious feast but get Filler garbage and crap animations and a crap storyline with no plot… we are starving will watch anything that has dragon ball in it and will complain as we eat it since we know it could be so much better. 🙂 that’s why people complain. Dbs sucks. And we want it better.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Yea… goku is basically training her though. Shes not a real threat.

  • SAB

    Plants sure are mortals. ToP is a test of strength, but it was only a request made by Goku and has absolutely no relation to mortal level except that the winning universe gets to survive.
    Elimination of low mortal universes was a thing which would have happened whether or not ToP happened. Only the low mortal-level universes are participating because they are the ones for which winning is the only way for not getting wiped out by Zeno.
    Besides, what makes you think strength is a factor? That’ll only add more questions such as, whose strength?
    LMAO “Dragonball is ALL ABOUT strength” does not mean every word you come across in Dragonball only means strength.

  • SAB

    U6 technically also has only 3 fighters since the potara fusion won’t be undone until the end of the ToP. Nevertheless, I too think U2 will be the one eliminated since it is right after that Androids’ battle.

  • Koibito888

    Except Krillin got that power up and immediately fought Goku and the above events happened so I don’t know what you’re on about.

  • Koibito888

    Obviously it doesn’t do what Kaioken does I didn’t say that.

    I said it’s just like Kaioken where it is a technique and not a transformation. Whis explained it as a technique.

    And we know what UI does it’s a reaction/speed boost, it’s moving without thinking, it’s what Whis explained.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    I’m not going to say super sucks cause I don’t invest in it, but ppl should know DB has never been the one to follow on its own laws and rarely use good animati9n

  • Koibito888

    Yeah Beerus does it untransformed, without power ups multiplying their base power.

    No, I’m saying Krillin accomplished a much lesser version of a technique in a whole adventure or whatever, that Goku and Vegeta learned a much better version of that they gained in a matter of minutes.

  • Silver King

    Not plot holes but an inconsistency

  • Silver King

    Koibito is right. Thanks to the power of plot convenience and infinite ass pull Kafla can defeat Blue.

  • Silver King

    I thought they were cool at first, but their plot convenience and ass pulls ruined them for me.

  • Silver King

    Jiren wasn’t taking any damage at all when fighting UI Goku and was able to tank the last punch with no difficulties.

  • Silver King

    Jiren took that last punch from UI.

  • SAB

    Goku managed to land one punch on Jiren though. The one that struck Jiren’s gut.

  • Ryumancer

    Without strength, the ToP wouldn’t even be a thing. And the rankings would make less sense. They said more than once that the “weakest” universes get erased. “Weak” is an adjective that is used to describe “strength”, or lack thereof. I HOPE you knew that one.

    Even if strength were not one of the biggest factors, it is still a factor regardless. Saying it isn’t goes against what Dragonball is in general.

  • Ryumancer

    He’s on about crying himself to sleep and jacking himself off in the corner like any other brainless troll with his low IQ does. Don’t pay him much mind. -_-

  • dbz

    goku landed a few hits when fighting jiren in ultra instinct the only reason jiren tanked that last punch was because goku ran out of the transformation

  • dbz

    I doubt it jiren blocked that last punch because goku ran out of that transformation

  • Leo LeiGto

    Your body moving independently is not much of a technique… its Instinct. Techniques are used to achieve this end goal of awareness but it’s supposed to be innate. therefore it is nothing like kaioken or Kamehameha which are both techniques. its Ultra Instinct. not a technique. lets not complicate this.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Fake. Krillin has not powerd up much. his power level is still around maybe 20k-40k . Not bad for an earthling. lol.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lel. i dont know what your on about. Krillin is not strong. 😀

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol. Not sure what you mean as DBZ is pretty straight forward. As far as the animation.. DBS has crappy animation but DBZ and the movies have pretty consistent animation. Dragon Ball is a different story as it is not DBZ. Dragon ball is from 1986-1989… So if your talking about that yea the animation is crappy. DBZ got a lot better from 1989- 1996… and then there is super. they cant even make good fighting scenes because they are trying to turn DBS into a naruto filler cash cow. 1 episode of action 20 of filler, 1 episode of…. 20 filler… so on. Dragon Ball Z followed its path consistently… Train, get stronger, learn new things, fight bad guys, get beat, train some more, get new power up… if that’s not consistent i dont know what is.

  • Koibito888

    Learning to move in a specific way in a specific state of mind that one is meant to learn and master. It’s a technique. DBZ has forms and techniques and that’s about it – complicating it is trying to come up with some new definition for it.

  • Koibito888

    Lol using power levels, now I know you’re a troll.

    Also 18 specifically said Goku Blue was at the time much higher power than Krillin so there’s your proof Goku wasn’t ‘holding back to Krillin’s level’ as if that made any sense.

  • Koibito888

    Oh the anime can do wrong, Zamasu’s time loop proves that, powerscaling is just something that isn’t being done incorrectly.

    Preconceived notions is doing mental backflips to come up with any excuse to not believe characters can get stronger based solely on it being that character and nothing else.

  • Saiyan Soul

    >Preconceived notions is doing mental backflips to come up with any excuse

    That describes you perfectly.

  • Koibito888

    Actually it perfectly describes what I described already.

    I see Krillin gain a power up based on holding in his Ki.

    I see Krillin now suddenly being a lot stronger.

    I remember that Goku and Vegeta getting God Ki was explained exactly as holding their Ki in.

    2+2=4 here

    A mental backflip is seeing this, not taking it at face value, and trying to come up with some reason as to how Goku is lowering himself to Krillin’s level.

  • SAB

    Of course the weakest universes will be erased now that they are participating in the ToP for survival. ToP is about strength, I agree but NOT mortal level. ToP is not related to the mortal level and so is strength. Of course the rankings don’t make sense if you apply them to the the ToP itself.
    Mortal level was only used to decide whether or not a universe must participate in the ToP but not the outcome of the ToP.
    Simply put: ToP = strength, ToP ≠ ML and STRENGTH ≠ ML. (think of = as more of a “relation” than the mathematical “equals to”)

  • Leo LeiGto

    Technique – a way of carrying out a particular task, especially the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure….skill or ability in a particular field.

    Instinct – an innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior.

    Saying instinct is a technique is false lol. looks like dictionary simplifies things. Strange.

  • Silver King

    The power from the transformation was still there, hence the explosion and Jiren have to active his ki to tank it.

  • Saiyan Soul

    Whatever floats your headcanon, my man ¯_(ツ)_/¯

  • Anthony_weaver86

    I’m talking about DB laws in general and it’s conditions,

  • Koibito888

    On screen facts do, yes.

  • Koibito888

    “They are not trying to cultivate a skill”

    Except they are, that is why Whis has to teach them this and why it is something to be ‘mastered’. It is a skill, it is a way of movement that Whis intended to teach them. It is not an innate power inside of them to be awoken it is a way of movement that increases their speed as Whis exactly described.

  • Koibito888

    Because he’s basically teaching them his tricks

  • Leo LeiGto

    It does not increase speed. It will make them react faster, instinctively. But it is not a speed increase. It allows for them to bypass communication from their brain to said body part ergo instinct. Whis did not say power up speed technique. That’s fake news. He said your body parts will move freely without having to think about it. Hence instinct. Ultra because god level needed to be able to tap into this potential that all fighters/ beings have but few reach it.

  • Koibito888

    “You two are still thinking with your heads to move” “Doing so puts a limit on your SPEED” “You just have to have each area of your body think and move on it’s own, but that is very difficult. Not even Beerus has completely mastered it.”

    So yeah, Whis literally said that not doing this puts a limit on your speed, ergo doing so removes that limit. The speed increases from where it was limited. It is a speed increase. It is something that Beerus has to master and that is difficult to learn to do this. Nothing has described it as an innate ability within to be awoken normally other than the name being ‘Instinct’ – everything else has described it otherwise so just going ‘oh well Instinct means this so that’s how the form works’ doesn’t cut it.

    It in specifically a way of moving and thinking that one has to learn to accomplish, something Whis can teach, and something to be mastered, to accomplish removing said limit on ones speed. This is exactly how Whis described it.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol. Nothing but the name huehuehuehue. Don’t make it more complicated then it has to be buddy. Toriyama is not a genius. Ultra instinct is just ULTRA Instinct. its not a technique, its not a skill. It’s Ultra Instinct. Get a bigger cookie cutter. maybe it will cut it.

  • anonymous

    You are drawing conclusions from the anime and you are correct in that the fusion is stronger than buu saga vegito. However I am assuming that the plot is poorly written right from the beginning of RoF arc, and then as @disqus_8ikkvAeL7Z:disqus mentioned, due to infinite ass pull Kafla can defeat ssb.

  • SOLOmio

    there was odin’s death and warriors three

  • Blocked

    UI is basically a buff like Kaioken

  • KDG

    What power up might that be?

  • SAB

    It is in the summary for episode 116. We don’t know yet what that power up is.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Yes but there was no emotion with there lost, just jokes

  • SOLOmio

    there was but in short bursts, since the last two was mostly emotion!
    thor 1: lost his hammer, daddy issues, brother issues, being worthy
    thor 2 dark world: malekith issues, daddy issues, brother issues, girlfriend issues.
    they could have done it again, but i guess they got tired of emotional and went for fun instead. I mean finding out hela is your sister and the original holder of mijlonir and that your father was an warmonger, could,v been elaborated a bit. But nevertheless it was good.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Yeah it was a good film, but now I cannot wait for Black Panther

  • Meliodas

    Finally, some screen time for 17 and 18. 17 must finish in the top 3 of the U7 warrior but it will probably be Gohan as the third

  • Meliodas

    Finally someone understand. Right now, Goku is thinking about training to beat Jiren and the saiyan girl are the perfect training partners. The stronger Goku push these girls, the further he can go.

  • Meliodas

    We don’t know the girls age except that the are older than Cabba. As Saiyan, they can be 40+ and still look like 20 similar to Goku and Vegeta,

  • Paul Watson

    lol Its Probably SSJ3, The Form They’ve Been Trying To Get. Also, Caulifla’s Been Able To Go SSJ For Over 10 Episodes, Since She Was Introduced Basically, She Just Couldn’t Willingly Go SSJ2. Same For Kale And Her Berserker Form, She Just Couldn’t Control It Until During The Tournament.

  • ®CodeBreaker™

    Exactly! Along with Saiyans becoming stronger as they fight. Everyone is thinking of them as these 2 new girls with no experience. They should be thinking of them as Saiyans. Saiyans who exceed expectations and limitations. It’s always been like that. Nothing new there. lol

  • s̶ᴡ̇ᴀ̦͑͂ɢ͠ᴀ̙ᴍ̧ᴏ̩̫͛ᴛ͓͔̫ᴏ͂

    well it’s fusion

  • Paul Watson

    The People Who Say Its Bullshit How They’re Strong Are Just Dumb, lol. They’re Trying To Think Of Them As Saiyan Saga Level Warriors, But They Aren’t, lol.

  • SOLOmio

    true of infinity wars

  • Koibito888

    Somehow it said I didn’t reply to this and I thought I did, so in case I didn’t:

    Yes I am drawing conclusions from the anime because that’s where you are supposed to draw conclusions from for super.

    Secondly if you’re just assuming and don’t actually have first hand knowledge then you can’t just spout stuff like its true.

    If they can fight even current ssj goku then their fusion should trump everything else.

    You have to look at multipliers. Yes God ki is a thing but remember that while ssjg is more powerful than goku’s current ssj, it is only by a bit (remember battle of gods goku’s ssj was stated to only be a little weaker than he was in ssjg) and blue is only 50x that. That is a huge number but potara multiplies the two power levels together. That is a ridiculously huge power up that is in fact going to trump only 50x ssjg which is only a bit stronger than ssj which caulifla and kale should be able to fight on their own – so yes that fusion very much would beat goku, logically, not through asspulls.

  • anonymous

    I disagree that SSG is only “a little” stronger than SSJ1. It was never stated in BoG. However in the same BoG, Goku admitted that even a fusion would be useless against Beerus and he was surprised at how strong he was at SSG and initially thought SSG was enough. It clearly indicates SSG >> Potara fusion. Therefore this is the result of an ass-pull.

  • Koibito888

    It was said though. Mind you I’m talking about SSJ1 Goku after his base power increased from God Ki. When Beerus finally pointed out to Goku that he wasn’t in SSJG anymore they talked about how he didn’t notice and Beerus noted that Goku was “only a little weaker than before” when he was in SSJG and that was why SSJ1 Goku could still fight beerus. So yes it was stated.

    As for your logic, what you said indicates SPECIFICALLY that SSJG Goku > Buu Saga Vegetto, not all Potara fusions ever, that entirely depends on the base power. Caulifla and Kale can fight with (while still losing against) SSJG Goku but he doesn’t stomp because they can fight SSJ Goku, but SSJG is a little stronger as was stated in BoG.

    Blue is only 50x SSJG, Potara fusion is a much larger multiplier let alone with SSJ levels multiplying that. So logically they should be able to beat Blue Goku.

  • anonymous

    What you say doesn’t make any sense. How can SSJ1 be as strong as SSG? Both are multipliers to the base form. If one gets powerful, so does the other and there is no arguing that SSG has a much higher multiplier than SSJ1 because Goku himself stated that Fusion << SSG.
    You just stated that Kale and Caulifla are as strong as Goku in their SSJ/LSSJ forms which means the same thing holds for their base forms. Therefore base Kefla << SSG Goku. Since the anime went against that, I am concluding that it is only an ass-pull.
    Btw in a previous reply you stated that I am assuming things without any first hand knowledge. In fact, I haven't assumed anything other than that DBS is poorly written when compared to Z. Everything I have stated are obvious conclusions made from Z and BoG.

  • Koibito888

    SSJG is not a multiplier. SSJG increases base power.

    When Goku lost SSJG his base power increased, but when he went back into SSJG, SSJG was not any stronger than before. It didn’t multiply off his new base power it went back to the same power he had the first time he went SSJG.

    SSJ on the other hand is a multiplier obviously, and when Goku’s new base power came to be, SSJ multiplied that new base power to a new SSJ1 power and that power specifically was stated to be a little weaker than SSJG which did not get stronger based on Goku’s new base power.

    What do you mean the anime went against that? Base Kefla WAS stronger than SSJG Goku so what are you talking about?

    “I haven’t assumed anything other than that DBS is poorly written when compared to Z”

    Exactly, which means you’re biased, so instead of looking at any new info objectively you’ve already decided that it must be bulcrap without even thinking about it first.

  • anonymous

    No point in arguing with someone who thinks SSG is not a multiplier. So according to your new head canon SSJ3 will be stronger than SSG, well… good for you I give up.
    I haven’t been biased at all. I have only been stating the obvious.

  • Koibito888

    Okay then what you need to do is you have to explain why, when Goku got SSJG again at the end of the movie and the BoG Saga, why it was not any more powerful than the first time. If it was a multiplier then when Goku lost the form, got a higher base power due to God Ki, and then went SSJG again it would have multiplied off of that new base form power, but it didn’t. God Goku at the end of the movie/Saga was as strong as God Goku during the fight when he first got it.

    So go ahead, tell me why that happened if it was a multiplier since you’re so sure.

    And no, Goku cannot use God Ki in SSJ2 and 3 like he can in base and SSJ1.

    Your statements have all basically been ‘nothing makes sense and nothing means anything because it’s all an asspull’, that is already deciding your own logic instead of being objective about the info we get and actually thinking about it. That is bias.

  • anonymous

    Frankly, there is no explanation. It was bad writing by Toei which focuses on action rather than plot which is why none of that crap was included in the manga. If it wasn’t bad writing then Vegeta SSJ1 = Goku SSJ1 = SSG = Cabba SSJ1 SSJ1.

    If the info is illogical you cannot derive something logical no matter how hard you think about it. I never made conclusions out of thin air, I am stating facts from the anime (the manga does things right), showing that the facts contradict each other, therefore leading to conclusions such as bad writing/asspull.

  • Koibito888

    If there’s no explanation you are admitting that your ideas are baseless. You’re saying you think SSJG is a multiplier just because you think it is, because all info pointing otherwise you just disregard it otherwise. This is bias. You have to look at it objectively and take the info as it is. Otherwise even if it objectively and factually made sense you’d just deny it anyway because nothing means anything. That’s your logic and that’s biased. It’s also ridiculous considering this info stayed consistent from the anime to BoG more directly written by Toriyama, it was obviously intentional.

    Uhh… Did you watch any of BoG or Super? That was literally the point of Goku losing God form and then still being able to survive against Beerus in base form and SSJ, that was the entire point behind his sudden power boost that he was using god Ki in these forms, that was the whole reason Beerus told Goku that his SSJ form was only a little weaker than his SSJG form before he lost it. These were consistent, intentional facts both in the anime and movie. SSJG is very much stated to be a shortcut form meant to just give a Saiyan complete God Ki, Vegeta does it without SSJG by Whis teaching him the natural way (far better than how the manga handled it where it’s still not giving a proper explanation of God Ki). You don’t just get SSJG from using God Ki, Vegeta and Goku use it in base without transforming and they use it in SSJ without going Blue, it’s not just any God Ki forces the forms to happen they have to raise their held in Ki to a certain level to make the transformations happen.

    In your example, yes, Goku can also go into SSJ without using any God Ki at all, but he can also use some in SSJ. God Ki is not just a thing you switch on they explained it clearly in the anime as the result of holding in your Ki while raising it. It’s about raising Ki, it’s just a higher state of Ki. Not only is base Goku and SSJ Goku able to fight against Beerus but base Goku was as strong as Final Form Frieza after he trained – these things are the case because Goku uses God Ki in these forms before going full power to go into Blue. He even explained, when questioned the first time he went SSJ why he could still use SSJ instead of Blue (which also showed that all the characters confused about this flat out expected Goku and Vegeta to not be able to use SSJ anymore and only Blue from then on), with “I’m just not at full power”. It’s not just having God Ki it’s having God Ki and using it to full power that causes the change.

    The info isn’t illogical, the info is only illogical to your preconceived notions based on nothing but the fact that you think they are true. In particular, again, with SSJG’s power and clearly how God Ki works too.

  • anonymous

    I said there is no explanation, but if you can read, you must have noticed I also stated what happens if that were true immediately. You are saying SSG isn’t a multiplier just because you think it isn’t. What info have I disregarded? Stop talking about my logic and get some points yourself to justify your claims.

    Your entire answer is YOUR head canon. Where are you spouting all of this from? Give evidence.

  • Koibito888

    I did give evidence. I’ve said this multiple times but here I’ll do so again as descriptive as I can for you.

    Goku lost SSJG and his base for suddenly increased very drastically to the point where while SSJ3 was downed with a casual flick, this base Goku was fighting and surviving against a serious Beerus. Goku goes SSJ and is fighting closer to Beerus’ power again. He states that Goku is “only a little weaker than before” when he was in SSJG and it was literally explained that he absorbed the power of God Ki into his base and SSJ power. Once Goku goes SSJG again at the end of the movie it’s power is no higher than it was the first time he used it. These are facts that stayed consistent for both the anime and the movie even though they were made rather far apart. These were intentional facts.

    Then, once again, when Goku first uses SSJ again after the RoF Saga, when Goku is questioned as to why he can even use SSJ anymore, his answer is he’s not at full power. This shows that Goku not only uses God Ki in SSJ because of the above, but that it takes using God Ki to a full power extent in SSJ is what causes the Blue transformation – NOT just having God Ki at all.

    These are directly stated and explained from the anime and movies respectively and I’ve stated them multiple times but you disregard them.

  • anonymous

    It was actually stated that God ki merged with Goku’s body not with a particular form such as base or SSJ which can mean 2 possible things:
    #1. Goku can transform into SSG and SSB without a ritual.
    OR
    #2. Goku can use the God ki in all forms as God ki is an addition to his original ki. This is a wrong conclusion because soon after the SSG form dropped, everyone was able to sense Goku’s ki which means he wasn’t using God ki. So there is no explanation on how Goku got stronger, hence it was bad writing by Toei.
    Goku used SSG only after seeing that SSJ2 is not strong enough in ToP which means SSJ2 SSG which goes against the anime itself. Therefore I strengthened my point that #2 is incorrect.

    This is exactly what Goku tells frieza about SSB in the RoF arc of DBS “This is the SSJ from of a Saiyan who has the power of SSG” which makes me conclude that SSG is a new base form of Goku with god ki and SSJ of that base form gives SSB which is literally SSGSS.

  • Koibito888

    It was stated that the God Ki merged with Goku’s Body specifically to explain the power up to his base and SSJ forms so yes it was stated, and yes Goku getting stronger was explained directly.

    Goku and Vegeta can go Blue without a ritual. One cannot go SSJG without the ritual. Both proven by Vegeta.

    Goku CAN use God Ki in his base and SSJ form in addition to his regular Ki. Yes, SSJG cannot be sensed but remember Blue CAN. They have shown multiple instances of characters able to sense Blue Goku because some of his Ki is still leaking out. God Ki is not a separate form of Ki it is the result of holding in and raising Ki, any Ki still leaking out can be sensed, but Blue is still using God Ki despite being able to be sensed. So no, it’s not a wrong conclusion.

    Your explanation shows a complete lack of understanding of God Ki. God Ki is literally about Ki control, it is about holding in and raising Ki. The harder a form is to control the less the user is able to hold in their Ki. Goku cannot use God Ki with SSJ2 and 3, only 1. You’re assuming that if everything that has been shown in the anime and movies is as it was shown to be, that SSJ2 would have to be stronger than God. That is not the case. Goku particularly only uses 2 and 3 when he’s playing around or doesn’t have much energy. Sparring with Trunks, directly stated to be playing around the first time he fought Black and started in 2, when he was drained after the first time using UI and went up progressing through his forms. Goku does not use SSJ2 and 3 seriously yet he does use 1 seriously.

    Facts:

    – Goku’s base and SSJ1 form were consistently stronger after absorbing God Ki, in the movies and anime and it was directly said to be because of God Ki in him.

    – God Ki has been thoroughly explained in the anime to be the result of holding in your Ki while raising it, with the above shows that Goku and Vegeta can use God Ki in base and SSJ1.

    – Blue can still be sensed meaning that God Ki can be used even if a little Ki is leaking out.

    – SSJG still cannot be sensed and in the anime was emphasized to be a shortcut form, this shows that SSJG is a form that forces 100% held in God Ki while Base before mastering God Ki and going SSJ makes it harder to hold in. This proves that while God Ki can still be used if some is leaking out, the higher the form used with it, the harder it is to use God Ki because higher SSJ forms are directly counterproductive to the idea of ‘holding in Ki’.

    – Goku specifically uses SSJ2 and 3 when playing around against lesser opponents or when in a weakened state.

    This means that SSJ2 and 3 absolutely could not be able to use God Ki, they expel Ki too hard. SSJ1 can be mastered as shown in Cell Saga (while Toriyama himself has said that SSJ2 and 3 waste Ki no matter what) and so one can use God Ki with it but it still can be sensed even when in Blue because SSJ still burns out Ki a bit (the manga even covers the idea that Blue can still be sensed and even more Ki needs to be held in for it to not be sensed so this is the case across all boards even if the way the manga handles it is awful), while base form can obviously use God Ki yet still be sensed because Goku and Vegeta have not reached a mastery of God Ki to the point of holding everything in. SSJG is a shortcut to this being why it can’t be sensed at all.

    All these facts together show that the scale is like this:

    Base (with no God Ki/Ki held in) < SSJ1 (no God Ki) < SSJ2 (can't use God Ki anyway) < SSJ3 (can't use God Ki) < SSJ1 (WITH God Ki) only slightly< SSJG < SSJB.

    This is all based entirely on the info from the anime and movies with no assumptions whatsoever.

    The manga also handled most everything like crap, especially God Ki given that for a manga that loves to overexplain itself it has yet to actually explain how God Ki works. And it actually doesn't make sense that Base and SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta wouldn't receive a power up from having God Ki, that's literally what God Ki does.

    You gotta stop using phrasing like "SSJG is stronger than fusion" you know as well as I that that depends on the character. Beerus and Whis fusing would be stronger than SSJG Goku lol. If Caulifla and Kale can at least fight with SSJG Goku and not be one shotted (Goku was obviously stronger than their SSJ forms in SSJG but he still couldn't one shot him meaning they were somewhat near his power). This means at best their base forms would only be a little over 50x weaker than SSJG Goku.

    Potara is RIDICULOUSLY HUGE. Potara multiplies power levels together. One of them could have a power level of 2 and the other a power level of 50 and they'd already clear that gap of their base form being 50x weaker than their SSJ form which came near SSJG Goku. You know for a fact their power isn't that low. Potara would multiply their power a stupid number of times, way over 50, more than enough to clear that gap so no Base Kefla should be stronger than SSJG Goku by a lot.

  • anonymous

    Firstly I apologize for “SSJG is stronger than fusion” I was lazy, but if I use Fusion again please treat it as referring to Vegito/Gotenks/Kefla.
    >It was stated that the God Ki merged with Goku’s Body specifically to explain the power up to his base and SSJ forms
    That is entirely your head canon. What makes you restrict the power up only to base and SSJ?

    >Goku and Vegeta can go Blue without a ritual. One cannot go SSJG without the ritual. Both proven by Vegeta.
    Goku and Vegeta can both transform into SSG without the ritual. If the God ki hadn’t merged with their bodies they would need to perform the ritual every time in order to go SSG/SSB.

    >Yes, SSJG cannot be sensed but remember Blue CAN
    It was stated that God ki cannot be sensed by non Gods. And Trunks couldn’t sense Vegeta’s SSB ki in the anime itself. So the anime is going against itself.

    >God Ki is not a separate form of Ki it is the result of holding in and raising Ki
    Where is that stated? God ki is limited only to Saiyans due to SSG ritual, and other actual Gods. All the other fighters like Hit, Toppo and Jiren don’t have god ki. Their raw battle power exceeds the power of SSG and SSB.

    >The harder a form is to control the less the user is able to hold in their Ki. Goku cannot use God Ki with SSJ2 and 3, only 1.
    SSJ + kaioken x20 is harder to control than SSJ2 & 3. So why is there SSB + kaiokenx20 in the first place?

    >You’re assuming that if everything that has been shown in the anime and movies is as it was shown to be, that SSJ2 would have to be stronger than God.
    That isn’t an assumption, that is a clear conclusion.

    >Goku does not use SSJ2 and 3 seriously yet he does use 1 seriously.
    Obviously because SSJ1 was sufficient and it is a more stable form than SSJ2 and 3. Once he realized his opponents are getting powerful he too transformed. SSJ1 was only meant to conserve his stamina and he literally says that.

    Fact corrections:
    – Please point out where they said the increase in strength was due to God ki. The anime shows them training in their base forms so it isn’t surprising that they had grown stronger.
    – Again I need a reference maybe an episode number?
    – In episode 54 Vegeta shows SSB to trunks and trunks says he can’t sense Vegeta’s ki.
    – Again you are talking about holding ki in is God ki, I disagree. Mastering a form means holding ki in properly, not God ki.
    – same goes for your last fact.
    About the manga:
    >And it actually doesn’t make sense that Base and SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t receive a power up from having God Ki, that’s literally what God Ki does.
    It actually makes sense. Having a god ki is literally the ability to transform to God forms without any sort of ritual every time. I don’t see why a form which has nothing to do with God ki would receive a power up from it.

    As a result I still am not convinced that SSJ1 (nearly)= SSG, therefore Caulifla and Kale (in base forms) are only as strong as Goku base so SSG should still trump their fusion at least in the base form.

  • Koibito888

    “That is entirely your head canon.”
    Except it’s not, it was explicitly explained in the movie and anime as for the reason Goku was stronger as SSJ1 and base after losing SSJG.

    “What makes you restrict the power up only to base and SSJ?”
    Because the entire method to God Ki is holding in your Ki and raising it. Toriyama has stated, and it’s been demonstrated, that SSJ2 and 3 burn off power no matter what, they can’t be mastered to the degree 1 can, and base obviously can. Hell Toriyama even said in that same interview that after Goku fought Beerus, he realizing that mastering his SSJ power would benefit him more than SSJ2 and 3. He said Goku probably wont use 2 and 3 anymore because of those reasons and since then, the only time Goku has used 2 and 3 has been when playing around and when in a weakened state. He has not used them seriously to try and defeat an opponent. Those forms are counterproductive to the entirety of God Ki.

    “Goku and Vegeta can both transform into SSG without the ritual.”
    Incorrect, in the anime Vegeta actually makes a huge deal about not using SSJG specifically, calling it a shortcut and a ‘patchwork form’ that he will gain power without. Goku later even explains that unlike himself, Vegeta learned God Ki “without the advantage of feeling God Ki first”. Vegeta does not have SSJG because he did not do the ritual because he specifically decided against it and learned God Ki on his own.

    “If the God ki hadn’t merged with their bodies they would need to perform the ritual every time in order to go SSG/SSB”
    No, because God Ki is just something you can learn.

    “It was stated that God ki cannot be sensed by non Gods. And Trunks couldn’t sense Vegeta’s SSB ki in the anime itself. So the anime is going against itself.”
    Actually my bad, it was specifically Blue Kaioken that could be sensed by Hit who specifically could sense how many times Goku’s power was multiplying. This supports the point that usage of Ki counterproductive to God Ki will cause Ki to leak out that can be sensed without them losing the form.

    “Where is that stated?”
    The anime explicitly explains God Ki as nothing more than holding in Ki and raising it. It’s just a compressed, raised state of Ki that can’t be sensed when it’s all held in (while again some can leak out, the movie and anime confirmed God Ki in Goku’s body was the exact reason that his base power was suddenly stronger).

    “God ki is limited only to Saiyans due to SSG ritual, and other actual Gods.”
    Uh no… Lol the entire reason Whis exists is to find and train Gods of Destruction. God Ki is a method of holding in your Ki and raising it, anyone can be trained by someone who knows how to use God Ki, to use God Ki. It’s how Vegeta learned it, just by learning from Whis without the ritual – again also stated directly in the anime.

    “All the other fighters like Hit, Toppo and Jiren don’t have god ki.”
    Uhhh… Toppo is the next candidate for God of Destruction so he specifically will learn to use God Ki in the future.

    “SSJ + kaioken x20 is harder to control than SSJ2 & 3.”
    In a way yes in a way no. Kaioken is a sudden burst of power that lasts as long as Goku’s body can take the backlash. It’s harder to control in that once his Ki control holding his SSJB form is broken through by said backlash it ruins Goku’s body – but he still has a period of stabilizing his Ki pushing back against Kaioken’s backlash (Goku even acts like Blue is almost a shield when he’s looking at the aura against the red Kaioken aura commenting that “even Blue cannot hold up” and again, Hit could sense Kaioken. SSJ2 and 3 are straight up form changes that force Goku into a state of constant increased Ki burn. Both are counterproductive to God Ki but one is a one shot burst with a stabilization period before coming back at him hard, while the others just rush out Ki constantly.

    “That isn’t an assumption, that is a clear conclusion.”
    It’s not. Toriyama himself said that after fighting Beerus, mastering Base and SSJ1 power would benefit him more than SSJ2 or 3. The clear conclusion, after they confirmed God Ki powered up Base and SSJ1 but then watching as he only uses SSJ2 and 3 against weaker opponents, is that he is not using God Ki in SSJ2 or 3. Even in the ToP Goku didn’t even fight in 3, he admitted he got accidentally fired up and went 3 and was like ‘wait this burns off too much’ and powered back down he does not use it for serious purposes because of this drawback.

    “Obviously because SSJ1 was sufficient and it is a more stable form than SSJ2 and 3.”
    Yes, SSJ1 is more stable, stability and control of his Ki are exactly what makes God Ki happen.

    “Once he realized his opponents are getting powerful he too transformed. SSJ1 was only meant to conserve his stamina and he literally says that.”
    He fought in 2 when he is going easy on people, he refused to even fight in 3. Once he realized he needed to be serious he went to SSJG.

    “- Please point out where they said the increase in strength was due to God ki.”
    Episode 13. Beerus “Please, your SSJG aura ran out a while ago”.
    Goku is shocked by this “huh? When did that… But I don’t feel any weaker at all.” (there’s also your confirmation that SSJ1 Goku is equal to SSJG)
    Goku asks how that happened
    After some bickering Beerus explains to SSJ1 Goku “it appears your SSJG powers did not disappear due to a time limit. Rather the power completely fused with your very being”.
    So yes he specifically tells Goku that the reason he does not feel any weaker in SSJ1 than in SSJG is because Goku has God Ki in him. This same concept is explained at the same point in the movie.

    “The anime shows them training in their base forms so it isn’t surprising that they had grown stronger”
    That wouldn’t explain Goku in base and SSJ1 suddenly being immensely stronger than before getting SSJG.

    “- Again you are talking about holding ki in is God ki, I disagree. Mastering a form means holding ki in properly, not God ki.”
    Episode 22 – Vegeta and Goku are in Whis’ staff and can’t move until Vegeta focuses, his aura suddenly disappears.
    “I get it. If you increase your energy and control it so it doesn’t leak out, you can move”
    Goku does the same, his aura disappears.
    “Finally we can move! But this is harsh keeping it all inside though”
    Vegeta: “Is this the secret to God’s energy? The pressure inside is intense…”
    So again, directly stated. God Ki is just held in, raised, high pressure Ki.

    “Having a god ki is literally the ability to transform to God forms without any sort of ritual every time”
    No. Having God Ki is literally just having God Ki. Beerus doesn’t transform, God Ki is not the ability to transform it’s the ability to just have God Ki and as it has been directly stated as I sourced above, all that means is holding in Ki and raising it to a point.

    “therefore Caulifla and Kale (in base forms) are only as strong as Goku base so SSG should still trump their fusion at least in the base form.”
    If Caulifla and Kale are as strong as Goku in base form, then they are as strong as him in SSJ, and as I’ve shown you now it is blatantly stated to be as strong as SSJG, then that means they are only 50x weaker than SSJG. Potara would be much, much, much MUCH higher than 50x. Their base form should wreck.

  • anonymous

    Okay from the anime you have proven that SSJ = SSG. You also proved Kale and Caulifla SSJ = Goku SSJ = Goku SSG.
    I’m certain SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ Caulifla. Which means SSJ2 Caulifla > Goku SSJ => SSJ2 Caulifla > Goku SSG
    But episode 114 Goku SSJ2 fights evenly with Kale and Caulifla (in SSJ2) which means SSJ2 Caulifla < Goku SSJ2 < Goku SSG. The equations don't add up at all.
    So either Goku wasn't using God ki in SSJ1 or he can use God ki in SSJ2 as well.

    You also proved Goku cannot use God ki in SSJ2 which means he wasn't using God ki in SSJ1. Therefore SSG should still triumph the fusion.

  • Koibito888

    Yes, Goku SSJ1 with God Ki is near SSJG Goku power as I’ve proven. But no I proved that in their fight with SSJG Goku that they were a little weaker – that was the fight with SSJ2 Caulifla and SSJ Kale so you’re a little off. I proved that SSJ2 Caulifla is a little less than SSJG Goku. I did mention that Base Caulifla would be 50x weaker so that was my bad, but the fight I was referencing was the SSJ2 fight because they started that fight for real in SSJ2 which is where you can start comparing them.

    Base Goku without God Ki < SSJ1 Without God Ki < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < SSJ1 WITH God Ki = (or only slightly SSJ2 Caulifla.

    In fact if you watch, yes it was because she was slow in ascended form but Goku very casually topples Caulifla in SSJ1, we don’t actually see her fight SSJ1 other than Goku laughing as he casually pushes her over. He starts the actual fight in SSJ2 under the pretense of training her, as in not taking it seriously.

    Then SSJ2 Goku is fighting her but he’s rather casual there too. She’s laughing and going wild but clearly putting forth some effort while Goku is simply smirking each time he effortlessly catches all her punches. So SSJ2 Goku is at least slightly above SSJ2 Caulifla at that moment (do keep in mind that she was getting better as she was fighting and was on a slow power crawl through that fight.

    SSJ2 Caulifla (Slightly) < SSJ2 Goku (enough to fight near on par with him with Goku still basically toying)

    SSJ2 Caulifla and SSJ (mastered berserk or her heightened SSJ1 state whatever you could call it) Kale were enough to take him on and so he went God where he was handling them rather easily, but they were near him enough to not get one shotted, yet still enough of a gap for him to toy with them.

    So SSJ2 Caulifla (slightly) < SSJ2 Goku < SSJG Goku

    The point to this scale is this would put Base Caulifla over 100x weaker than SSJG Goku. Here's the thing, again, Potara fusion would STILL close that gap. Potara earrings literally multiply the two power levels together, 100x is nothing to that. Base Kefla should in fact stomp SSJG Goku just like she did.

    To your points in your edit:

    "If this can be achieved by any mortal, what is the point of calling it God ki?"
    Because it's the Ki the Gods (Kai and Angels really) have naturally. The entire point to Gods of Destruction needing to be trained and Whis just being able to teach Vegeta God Ki is that mortal beings can be taught God Ki and that's how they make Gods of Destruction. You can't seriously use the fact that it's called God Ki as a defense that others can't get it when we saw others get it.

    "In the episode where Goku turns SSG Whis tells he isn't sure if Goku's ki is similar to the ki of Beerus and the Kais just because it cannot be sensed. Which means holding ki in is totally different from God ki"
    This happens BEFORE the episode where they then reveal how God Ki works. Whis wasn't sure and then they answered that uncertainty by showing God Ki being explained.

    "and the saiyans have achieved this only through a ritual"
    Except they state and imply on multiple occasions that Vegeta did not do the ritual nor did he ever get SSJG so no that's not the case.

    I already told you where exactly they say it. No matter what you believe it's been explained, this isn't a theory this is what they said in the series. They hold in their Ki and raise it and literally say that that right there is the secret to God Ki. Plain and simple right there in both the dub and sub it is right there. So it doesn't matter what Whis was uncertain of BEFORE they explained it, it doesn't matter what the aura looks like, and it's not exclusive to gods and rituals, it is a different method of moving Ki that's it, it's been flat out confirmed.

    God Ki is just a state of Ki being held in and raised to a point – it's just compressed Ki.

  • anonymous

    I think you interpreted my reply in a different way, so I’ll do it again like a math proof using proper references,
    1. SSJ goku with god ki= SSG goku (you proved it)
    2. Caulifla = Goku, in base and SSJ (definitely not stronger but giving you the benefit of =),
    here my question is: Is goku using God ki as SSJ?
    if yes,
    then SSJ Caulifla = SSJ goku (from 2), therefore,
    3. SSJ Caulifla = SSG goku (from 1)
    but SSJ Caulifla < SSJ2 caulifla (obvious) and SSJ2 Caulifla < SSJ2 if not, then at least SSJ3 Goku (from episodes 113 &114). Hence,
    4. SSJ Caulifla < SSJ3 goku
    From 3 and 4 we get SSG > Vegito but Vegito = kefla therefore SSG >> Kefla.

    >”The point to this scale is this would put Base Caulifla over 100x weaker than SSJG Goku.”
    Actually that should be SSJ2 not SSG. That would mean SSG is leagues ahead that even a Potara multiplier wouldn’t suffice just as I proved above.

    In episode 22 it is clearly shown that when you “hold your ki in” the aura needs to disappear. But the fact that SSG and SSB have a clearly visible aura outside their body means that ki isn’t being held in. Granted the anime gave explanations but they haven’t been consistent with their explanation making them void. This also questions the validity of the other explanations given by the anime.

  • Koibito888

    First off Caulifla did not fight base or SSJ1 Goku for real. We have to start the scale where we saw them actually fight and this was in SSJ2 and in SSJ3. SSJ1 Goku just topples her over. You’re starting off the scale at base form for some reason when we don’t have that comparison.

    SSJG = SSJ1 with God Ki.

    Okay so Caulifla didn’t fight SSJ1 Goku so it doesn’t really matter towards the point of talking about power scaling, the only reason to understand that Goku uses God Ki and how God ki works is so that you can understand that Goku can be stronger in SSJ1 than SSJ2 and 3, or he can be not particularly holding in Ki and be SSJ1 WITHOUT God Ki and be weaker than SSJ2. Caulifla didn’t fight SSJ1 Goku so trying to figure out whether or not he was using it in 1 doesn’t really mean anything for this particular scale so for right now we’re just gonna know that god powered SSJ1 and SSJG are similar in power and set aside SSJ1 until the other half of the conversation where we’re discussing how God Ki works.

    SSJG Goku > SSJ2 Caulifla (we know this as SSJG Goku was handling both her and Kale easily, but again they could still fight SSJG Goku so she’s near his strength enough to fight but he’s still strong enough to casually deal with both). This is the most important part, this is where we have to start the scale. Honestly the rest doesn’t matter to this conversation, comparing Caulifla to base Goku and SSJ1 Goku without God Ki doesn’t really have anything to do with anything nor does it have a fight to directly reference here, being why I’m trying to go over this and simplify it rather than touch every point of yours.

    If SSJ2 Caulifla is enough to fight SSJG and not get finger flicked in one shot like Beerus did to Goku then her and Kale are at least close to SSJG Goku at that time, close enough to not get casually one shotted but for Goku to not really have too much trouble.

    If this is true, which it is, we see it, then Base Caulifla is 100x weaker than this, which would be a little over 100x weaker than SSJG.

    Caulifla x Kale would be a multiplier much, MUCH over 100x times.

    Back to how God Ki works.

    “In episode 22 it is clearly shown that when you “hold your ki in” the aura needs to disappear. But the fact that SSG and SSB have a clearly visible aura outside their body means that ki isn’t being held in. Granted the anime gave explanations but they haven’t been consistent with their explanation making them void.”

    You realize that the only defense you’re making is that God Ki can’t possibly work the way they directly stated just because the art looks different from that to you, right? It is entirely invalid to try and take visual cues up against direct statement that’s just not how information works. You’re literally saying “their direct statement can’t be right cuz to me it doesn’t look like that” and that’s just not a correct way of thinking.

    I mean if you want to get into speculation about the aura and appearance the point is not that the Ki is inside your body the point is that the Ki is compressed. If God Ki specifically had to be inside the body to be used then energy blasts would not be using God Ki because it’d be outside the body. They have to hold it in and raise it because that creates compressed Ki. Energy blasts shot from the body out of God Ki are still made of God Ki, God Ki being outside the body doesn’t make it not God Ki, the whole point is compressing it so compressed Ki inside the body is the same as compressed Ki outside the body. My point is that if Goku’s energy is completely compressed, but still so plentiful that it’s more than his body holds it would still create an aura of compressed Ki.

    The point I’m getting at is that while it’s completely silly to try and say ‘it doesn’t look like that so the direct confirmation is wrong’, if you wanted to talk about what the aura looks like, SSJG (when Goku uses it at the ToP particularly) and especially Blue have a very distinct aura from a regular Ki aura in that regular Ki looks like it’s burning off, it looks like a flickering flame with faded edges that spike out like they are shooting off. SSJG and Blue’s auras are specifically very defined at the edges and swirls around the user like some sort of solid energy field or something – it specifically looks like the aura is contained instead of leaking off. That is entirely pointless because direct confirmation > random visual interpretations, but even then the aura looks like it should for what they describe.

    They very much have been consistent with their explanation and the aura looking a certain way to you doesn’t change that directly given info has remained consistent.

  • anonymous

    I think you are forgetting that SSJ2 Caulifla fought SSJ2 goku (episode 113) and both were nearly equal. And I can say this because she was amazed at the power of SSJ3 which means she was no where near that. That’s why I concluded SSJ2 Caulifla = SSJ2 Goku and therefore Base Caulifla = Base Goku without god ki and then my proof follows.
    I agree you have got valid points, but I too have equally valid points which can only mean the anime has been doing things wrong.

    “You realize that the only defense you’re making is that God Ki can’t possibly work the way they directly stated just because the art looks different from that to you, right? It is entirely invalid to try and take visual cues up against direct statement that’s just not how information works. You’re literally saying “their direct statement can’t be right cuz to me it doesn’t look like that” and that’s just not a correct way of thinking.”
    It wasn’t a direct statement that vegeta made. Vegeta: “Is this the secret to God’s energy? The pressure inside is intense…”
    This was only an assumption. It’s not my fault if the anime doesn’t stick to it’s so called claims.
    Btw I’ll have to go a bit off track and refer to the manga since holding ki in is perfectly explained there. In chapter 24 Goku holds the ki of SSB inside him while fighting Zamasu. Vegeta says that it means Goku is fighting at 100% of his power. You should also note that Goku’s aura was never outside his body when he was fighting at 100% power.
    I won’t agree if you say holding ki in has different meanings in the manga and the anime since both are supervised by Toriyama.
    In the anime it was “assumed” that holding ki in is God ki, but has been debunked due to the existence of an aura outside. However in the manga holding ki in is explained with certainty by Vegeta and it is also consistent with the aura not being outside. Therefore holding ki in is not doubt fighting at 100% and NOT God ki.

  • Koibito888

    For some reason I have a notification that you just replied, but it doesn’t show up when I try to reply.

  • Koibito888

    Alright well I have the email so I’m just gonna read off that and reply to this one since the last one isn’t showing up.

    Did you even read my post? Because I literally said exactly that.

    SSJ2 Caulifla (slightly) SSJ2 Caulifla so yes, I said that. I keep using conservative multiples and thats my bad but the point remains the same and the scale you stated is the same thing I said.

    The fact of the matter that I keep trying to get across is that it does not matter. If SSJG Goku was 100x stronger than her, 1000x, Potara would clear that gap easily.

    Lets say Base Caulifla was a few hundred times weaker than SSJG Goku even. Lets go crazy and say she was like 400 times weaker, okay well is Caulifla’s power level 400? Lol of course not. So the multiplier would be way over 400. Power levels are very stupidly high and aren’t relevant but multiplying two at this point will literally clear any gap it needs to. Potara would sweep passed SSJG Goku.

    No, an art decision does not debunk a confirmed statement that is not valid. There is a lot wrong with what you said.

    “It wasn’t a direct statement that vegeta made. Vegeta: “Is this the secret to God’s energy? The pressure inside is intense…” This was only an assumption. It’s not my fault if the anime doesn’t stick to it’s so called claims.”
    Yeah, after they went through the trouble to explain the process of holding in the Ki and raising it and demonstrating them doing it, and then this was the segway to them learning Blue, and then never did they disprove the statement and no, aura being there does not disprove that if it did it would have been pointed out. It was not an assumption that was then disproven the point was to get across them learning God Ki come on now you’re being ridiculous that is not valid information to try and say the statement was wrong. Everything is wrong with this way of thinking.

    “I won’t agree if you say holding ki in has different meanin gs in the manga and the anime since both are supervised by Toriyama”

    “Btw I’ll have to go a bit off track and refer to the manga since holding ki in is perfectly explained there. In chapter 24 Goku holds the ki of SSB inside him while fighting Zamasu. Vegeta says that it means Goku is fighting at 100% of his power. You should also note that Goku’s aura was never outside his body when he was fighting at 100% power.”

    First off you can even argue that they are both canon being supervised by Toriyama but you can NOT argue that the two are canon to each other. Explanation in one means absolutely nothing to the other.

    Second off no, I’m not saying that. Once again I’ve said this quite a few times now and you’re not understanding it. God Ki is Ki held in to a point. They have to keep their Ki condensed and raise it. Well when you’re using God Ki or even a God form you can raise your Ki even higher. SSJG and Blue Goku both increase their power while in the forms and so does Vegeta for Blue. If you can achieve God Ki by raising it to a point, but then raise it even higher, then if the same method requires holding in Ki and condensing it, then said characters can hold it in and raise it further.

    It’s the same exact thing. In the manga God Ki is not explained at all. Goku holds in his Ki MORE, to the limit of holding in his Ki where it is all inside and raised to the highest point. It just means he is condensing his Ki MORE than it already is, that doesn’t debunk anything. The anime could do the same thing and still make sense, in that AGAIN, Ki is held in and raised to a point and this makes God Ki. When using God Ki the user can still raise their power from there ergo they can still hold in their power more from there. The manga is describing holding in everything and raising it to the limit it is literally talking about FPSSJ to SSJ nothing about what you’re implying effects anything I’ve mentioned that the anime directly stated.

    “In the anime it was “assumed” that holding ki in is God ki”

    No it was directly shown and then questioned aloud for the purpose of confirmation.

    “but has been debunked due to the existence of an aura outside”
    No, I’m sorry but no without a character pointing that out directly that art style choice means absolutely nothing and is the worst argument I’ve heard. It does not work that way.

    And you know what? If you wanna talk about art speculation, then as Goku and Vegeta look at their hands after holding in their Ki you can STILL see transparent currents of their energy swirling around them you can still SEE the Ki that does not mean its not held in now stop with this ridiculous argument it means nothing in the first place and even if it did your interpretation of it is incorrect because of the visual effect that I just mentioned.

    “However in the manga holding ki in is explained with certainty by Vegeta and it is also consistent with the aura not being outside. Therefore holding ki in is not doubt fighting at 100% and NOT God ki.”

    Why do you think using God Ki in general creates at 100% state? I hope by now you understand what I’ve been saying but again just in case, holding in/condensing enough Ki to create God Ki, and holding in and raising that God Ki entirely to 100% is NOT the same thing. One holds in and raises enough Ki to make God Ki and then they can still raise and hold in their Ki MORE as we’ve seen in the anime. IF the anime does the same thing the manga does then it shows that holding in the Ki and raising it to 100% is then different and both are fully able to exist – IF the anime does it, whether it does or not does not change the facts.

  • anonymous

    I was never talking about God ki anywhere. My only point of discussion is about “holding ki in”. But fine you can keep your opinion about that and I will keep my opinion about that because no matter how much you try to convince me I won’t agree and no matter how much I try convincing you you won’t agree. It is better to proceed with our current opinions at least unitl the anime ends and we can reach a mutual agreement.
    About the SSG vs kefla I think you are unable to understand what I have been trying to say so I’ll do it step by step waiting for your replies.
    1. You have stated SSJ2 Caulifla = SSJ2 Goku.
    This means Caulifla Base = Goku Base (no god ki). Do you agree with my conclusion?
    Also Kale base = Goku Base (no god ki). Do you agree?
    Goku Base (no god ki)= Vegeta Base (no god ki). Do you agree?

  • Koibito888

    Yeah and ‘Holding in Ki and raising it’ to a point is what makes God Ki. They can still hold Ki in/compress it further and raise it further. If the manga thing happens it would be because of holding in and raising that ki to 100% and so it does not debunk what was said in the anime nor does aura being exposed and I’ve proven that given that even in your only example where they first did it and the aura disappeared, you still see an energy effect. So your entire argument that the aura existing proves Vegeta wrong is completely disproven in of itself. Vegeta’s statement still stands, it is a fact that God Ki is the result of holding in Ki, compressing it, and raising it. The anime explains and shows it clearly and consistently and nothing disproves it I have proven this completely.

    SSJ2 Caulifla SLIGHTLY >>> SSJG Goku.

  • anonymous

    Umm…. no, there was an energy effect yes, but that has nothing to do with God ki. Goku doesn’t even fight when he launches a blast so there is no point in talking about 100% power during an energy blast. So it doesn’t “disprove” anything. Besides everything you said hangs on the existence of aura.
    Your belief : Visuals don’t matter
    My belief: Visuals do matter and need to be consistent.
    So we are at a stalemate since you cannot question my belief and I cannot question yours which is why I said let’s wait till the anime ends.
    About fusion vs SSG, I said I’ll do it step by step waiting for your replies so wait for me to conclude:
    Vegito(no god ki) = goku(no god ki) x vegeta(no god ki) Do you agree? I need a ‘yes’ or ‘no’
    Kefla = Caulifla (base) x Kale (base) Do you agree? ‘yes’ or ‘no’
    Kale (base) = Vegeta (base) She’s not stronger at all, but I will give you the benefit of equals. Again ‘yes’ or ‘no’?
    Therefore Vegito (no god ki) = Kefla (base). Do you agree? (I’m giving you the benefit of a ‘yes’ even if you feel Kefla is weaker)

    I’ll conclude my argument after your answers to these.

  • Koibito888

    Okay I’ll ignore that part like you asked but I will clarify:

    It’s not that visuals don’t matter. It’s that direct statements >>>>>>>> visual interpretation with no character pointing it out. You can’t just deny something shown and explained just because you think something looks different – especially when no character or plot point alludes to it at all.

    I hope you do understand now but yeah we can come back to it.

    Yes Base Kefla would be at minimum around non God Vegetto then.

    And?

  • anonymous

    from BoG, SSG goku >> Vegito (no god ki) I’ll explain why,
    Goku assumed SSG was enough to beat Beerus despite taking that beating from Beerus as SSJ3. That same beating made him realize that fusion would be useless against Beerus who’s power level was assumed to be near a SSG (later it was known to be way higher). This means Goku SSG >> Vegito (no god ki), but Vegito (no god ki) = Kefla (base) as you agreed.
    Therefore SSG goku >> Kefla (base).

    About God ki:
    How do you know it was an energy affect? They were in a place similar to ROSAT. Besides, “holding ki in” literally means there shouldn’t be any energy outside the body. Also a question is still a question and is far from a direct statement. So I’ll edit our beliefs,
    Yours’: Statements >>>> Visual interpretation with no character pointing it out
    (let me remind you no character also explicitly stated God ki = ‘holding in ki and raising it’ except Vegeta asking himself if this was the same as god ki)
    Mine: Statements are important, but Visual interpretations need to be equally consistent.
    You have your view about any anime/manga and I have mine both of which are totally general and not related to any plot. I can deny something not properly explained in an anime/manga because of the visuals because that’s how I treat them. For me every detail matters. That’s why I call it a stalemate.

  • Koibito888

    SSJG Goku wasn’t stronger than Beerus what are you talking about?

    “How do you know it was an energy affect? They were in a place similar to ROSAT.”
    Because the Time Chamber doesn’t have that effect, inside Whis’ staff didn’t even have that effect, it only happened once they did hold in their Ki and it was specifically around them only. It was their energy effect there’s no denying it.

    “Besides, “holding ki in” literally means there shouldn’t be any energy outside the body.”
    Not true. Again, a Ki blast of God Ki fired out from the body is still god Ki. The point is not that it’s within the space of your body the point is that it’s condensed into a higher state of Ki. For the sake of visual lets say they had a huge, huge energy blast of regular Ki outside the body. Condensing and growing it to the right point will turn it into God Ki even though it’s outside the body – same goes for an aura. Honestly “there shouldn’t be any energy outside of the body” simply isn’t true when we see them do it, and then we see energy outside of the body. It’s just condensed.

    “Also a question is still a question and is far from a direct statement.”
    Yeah, and a question stated in realization of a process that just occurred, when not explicitly used to be proven wrong, is still a dialogue meant to make you understand what said realization of said process is, to make you understand the process. If it wasn’t blatantly included to be wrong, it was included to explain. What an aura looks like to you based on your assumption (again aura clearly doesn’t have to be nonexistent for enough Ki to be condensed because we see that your assumption about that is incorrect, and that is even a visual cue that does line up with direct statement so it is straight up fact) does not debunk any of that.

    “Mine: Statements are important, but Visual interpretations need to be equally consistent.”
    Well then good because the visual we got was in fact consistent with the dialogue. “Aura must be gone for Ki to be held in” is an assumption of yours that visual cue AND statement disprove ergo it is incorrect, it is consistent with itself – it’s your idea that the aura must be gone for enough Ki to be held in for God Ki to be made that is incorrect and inconsistent with the visual and dialogue.

    “I can deny something not properly explained in an anime/manga because of the visuals because that’s how I treat them. For me every detail matters.”
    The visuals show an energy effect directly as a result of what is both shown and described as “Ki being held in” directly disproving your notion that the aura can’t show if everything is held in. The visual and dialogue are directly linked and so as Goku and Vegeta hold in all their energy and an energy effect is still seen, that is the scene establishing what it means by “held in” and shows us directly. Every single little detail points to the fact that when enough Ki is held in to make God Ki there is still an aura effect and so there does NOT have to be no aura for God Ki to happen. Every single detail lines up in favor of that so if details really matter to you then you will see that your notion is incorrect and God Ki is in fact the product of Ki held in and that it still produces an aura.

  • anonymous

    “SSJG Goku wasn’t stronger than Beerus what are you talking about?”
    Hey I never said that. I said goku initially thought i.e. “assumed” SSG was enough to beat beerus, but he also knew Fusion wasn’t. So I put SSG above Vegito (no god ki). Therefore SSG > Kefla. Frankly, I feel like you are trying to avoid the main point by bringing up this question.
    “Because the Time Chamber doesn’t have that effect”
    Watch trunks’ description of the ROSAT in Z.
    “Not true. Again, a Ki blast of God Ki fired out from the body is still god Ki.”
    A ki blast is a concentration of ki so yes it is God ki. Existence of Aura outside the body isn’t a concentrated/condensed ki and aura is totally different from a ki blast. You can fire a blast even when holding your ki but the same doesn’t make ANY sense for aura. And no, the visual interpretations do not support the statement.

  • Koibito888

    Oh now I get what you meant about Beerus being higher my bad.

    But thats just it, Goku knowing that both fusion and SSJG wouldn’t beat Beerus says absolutely nothing about one vs the other.

    Also do keep in mind the power crawl, Caulifla and Kale were getting stronger through that fight so Base Kefla would be at least a little above Base Vegetto just as a note of interest.

    I did want Trunks’ description of the Time Chamber as asked. The Time Chamber and Whis’ staff before they held in their Ki did not contain that visual effect – It was their energy this is a fact.

    …. Aura is literally a buildup of Ki burning off you and while regular Ki flares out and dissipates and has wild edges, every God form’s aura is literally solid edged and contained. God Ki aura is very clearly a thicker more condensed Ki aura going off visual interpretation alone.

    “And no, the visual interpretations do not support the statement.”
    Except that yes they do. Because it was their energy. Despite holding in all their Ki. It was still visual energy as they were said to be doing that and that was directly questioned – with no intent to be proven wrong – that this was how God Ki happens.

  • anonymous

    “Goku knowing that both fusion and SSJG wouldn’t beat Beerus says absolutely nothing about one vs the other.”
    As goku turned SSG he clearly stated that he never experienced this kind of power, he even thought he could stop Beerus as SSG (this was AFTER he realized fusion is useless). so obviously SSG is a lot stronger than fusion. Agreed Caulifla was getting stronger but that was as a SSJ2 which means Base form is not getting strong quickly. Also note that Kale needs LSSJ to keep up with Goku which means her Base form is ridiculously weak. I see no reason for Kefla to be even as strong as vegito for that matter.

    Btw I rewatched episode 22 and I’m not sure, but I think you are referring to the wind flow after they suppress their ki as energy effect lol correct me if I am wrong, because the flow didn’t look anything like energy.
    If you are saying God ki is contained, then to some extent yes and to some extent no because SSG/B cannot be sustained for a long time, but if you hold in any normal ki it suddenly doesn’t become god ki. You need to remember that Vegeta had been training with Whis for several months before Goku arrived and it is during this point of time he must have learnt God ki. Whis even stated that the time for Goku to join Vegeta in training has come which means Vegeta had learnt God ki before Goku arrived (the only explanation you can give for why Goku and Vegeta were equals when Goku arrived) and before they went into the staff.

  • Koibito888

    “As goku turned SSG he clearly stated that he never experienced this kind of power, he even thought he could stop Beerus as SSG (this was AFTER he realized fusion is useless). so obviously SSG is a lot stronger than fusion.”

    You actually may be right about that.

    Honestly this may prove me wrong on one part, that it is possible to use God Ki with SSJ2.

    Along with what you said, there are some factors I missed.

    Cabba was as strong as Base and SSJ Vegeta with God Ki. Base Vegeta was not holding back and they made it a point to say the two were evenly matched. Caulifla was supposed to be stronger than Cabba so her fight with Base Goku as an SSJ2 had to be against Base Goku with God Ki, or at least Base Goku who started using God Ki being the reason he started matching her suddenly.

    From there Goku in SSJ2 if he was using God Ki it explains that perfectly. Caulifla’s power crawl takes her up to fighting SSJ2 Goku with God Ki which is actually thoroughly explained through her learning as she fights and having her potential drawn out.

    So it actually does make more sense that she can fight SSJG Goku and not be one shot, if her SSJ2 is actually closer to SSJ2 Goku with God Ki, which she would have to be because Cabba and I entirely forgot about him.

    The biggest piece of evidence is Trunks. SSJ Rage IS SSJ2 using God Ki. The appearance and effects of the form imply instability but it was reached. So it must be possible to a less efficient extent to use God Ki in SSJ2. 3 still probably not being why Goku didn’t actually use it to fight at all (or it just burns it off as soon as it’s collected).

    So while my points still stand, Caulifla and Kale do actually have to be equal to base Goku with God Ki by the time they fuse. Making the power increase even more consistent.

    “the wind flow after they suppress their ki as energy effect lol correct me if I am wrong, because the flow didn’t look anything like energy.”
    Yes… Because wind totally appeared out of nowhere in a place devoid of wind as soon as they held in their Ki because they summoned wind. Come on now, it was an effect that happened because they held in their Ki that was specifically encircling them, it was energy.

    “but if you hold in any normal ki it suddenly doesn’t become god ki”
    Wait now you see what I’m saying!

    This is exactly what I’ve been trying to say. Okay so try and follow. Ki output has a limit this is why people have limits and max potentials and the like. Okay but if that Ki is directed inward it becomes condensed and essentially you can build more. Now, as you said, just holding in ANY amount of Ki and raising it any amount wont just suddenly make it God Ki. BUT If you hold it in and raise it TO A POINT it becomes God Ki.

    Think of it like this. Cold water is still water, just making water cold doesn’t make it ice, you have to make it cold to a freezing point for it to actually become ice.

    Same here. Ki held in can be raised higher and become more potent but it still regular Ki. But compact it and raise it to a point and then it becomes God Ki. From there the Ki can be condensed and held in even further and raised even further, but it is still God Ki.

    Do you get it now?

    “You need to remember that Vegeta had been training with Whis for several months before Goku arrived and it is during this point of time he must have learnt God ki.”

    Actually this is impossible because when they learned God Ki in the staff, it was clearly the first time Vegeta felt it.

    Now, it is possible that Whis had been training Vegeta to hold in his Ki. Remember, just holding in any amount doesn’t make God Ki, doing it to a point is. Also he was the one who suddenly realized “oh I should try holding in my Ki” so perhaps he knew he was supposed to, but not that it was the secret to God Ki nor had he done so to actually successfully create God Ki – hence his surprised reaction to feeling God Ki.

    When Goku joined in on the training, they were just doing physical labor and the staff was said to be something they were doing a bit early so there really is no way Vegeta learned God Ki before that moment.

  • anonymous

    If goku can use god ki in SSJ2 then SSJ2 + god ki > SSG. It wouldn’t make any sense for goku to transform to SSG aka a weaker form upon getting overpowered. Also the fact that Caulifla was amazed at the power of SSJ3 means that SSJ3 is also stronger than SSG but SSJ3 ki cannot be contained. That’s a major loophole.

    “Because wind totally appeared out of nowhere in a place devoid of wind”
    Lol wind is only flow of air. ROSAT has huge temperature variances which causes flow of air aka wind. It was also clearly visible because there wasn’t any aura pushing it away from them. But we’ll go with energy since I really cannot say you are wrong.
    Anyways your explanation is quite good but it still has flaws. King kai stated that he was weaker than Vegeta when he first arrived on earth and Vegeta’s PL was <18000. Which means compressing 18000 units of reg ki will certainly give at least one unit of God ki?
    Trunks was able to compress his ki to a mere 5 when he first came from the future despite his power level was well over a million (a million was just frieza's 2nd form PL, trunks must have been way stronger). So according to you he achieved God ki in Z itself?

    "it was clearly the first time Vegeta felt it"
    Then explain why Vegeta was as strong as Goku just when Goku arrived on Beerus' planet. According to you Goku already had God ki. So why not Vegeta if they are equally strong?

  • Koibito888

    You know you’re right, that was my bad it was stupid late when I wrote that.

    When they fight the second time, just before Kale jumps in, watching it again I realize Caulifla indeed had the upper hand. When she actually did land a hit on Goku it sent him flying and reeling. Once Kale jumped in they actually started manhandling him. Goku started crawling back up but they specifically explained that it was because Goku was getting better as he fought, because “they were sharpening his senses” is the exact explanation Whis gives for Goku in SSJ2 actually being able to fight. This is the same exact fight where when Goku was in base, they explain that the only reason Base Goku is able to do anything against Caulifla are because his senses and technique is better. So they do straight up demonstrate that Caulifla SSJ2 > Goku SSJ2 until Goku starts sharpening his senses letting him fight opponents stronger than him – which was the given reason for Base Goku being able to fight with a stronger opponent than him in the same exact fight.

    That was the pattern. SSJ2 Caulifla power wise was stronger than Goku and started wrecking him, Kale jumps in and they start straight up manhandling him before “his senses get sharpened” and he’s able to keep up – but they still overpower him making him go 3. He even went 3 accidentally, like he obviously meant to but he did it on reflex, explaining that he got carried away, so Caulifla SSJ2 is definitely > SSJ2 Goku. In fact, when Kale powers up SSJ2 Goku is literally shaking in response. They stayed consistently above SSJ2 Goku for the whole fight with the only reason for Goku being able to keep up being explicitly stated to be because of skill and senses.

    She was surprised at SSJ3’s power but she was more excited than anything, and then we didn’t get a fight against it so there is no valid comparison here.

    From there he goes SSJG and is obviously way above them, but again not enough to finger flick them away Beerus style.

    But yeah relooking at the fight Goku could not have been using God Ki in base or SSJ2 against Caulifla in that second fight. Caulifla was much higher than his base, higher than SSJ2, forced him to go 3, and then God still wrecked them. Goku even straight skips SSJ1 in that instance going from base to 2 and SSJG was a shock to other characters because Goku was thought to not have the stamina yet. So no way he was using God Ki in base or SSJ2 in that fight. Caulifla very much overpowered non god base Goku, still overpowered SSJ2 Goku, and the only reason he was able to keep up was directly explained to be because of technique. Goku needed SSJG to fight them, they are way above base Goku and Vegeta without God Ki hence the Potara’s ridiculous multiplier logically making Base Kefla so much stronger.

    Okay I’m glad we could come to a consensus on that. God Ki is compressed Ki, and when they hold it in there is still an energy effect, so transformed the energy effect is bound to be more potent so the presence of aura is logical even with Ki being held in.

    “Which means compressing 18000 units of reg ki will certainly give at least one unit of God ki?”
    You’re looking at this all wrong. It’s not that the Ki is too low, it’s that it’s compressed enough. Lower power would have to be compressed even more. Think of a black hole, you can compress a sun and a small object and both will become black holes, you just have to compress the smaller object far more.

    “Trunks was able to compress his ki to a mere 5 when he first came from the future despite his power level was well over a million (a million was just frieza’s 2nd form PL, trunks must have been way stronger). So according to you he achieved God ki in Z itself?”
    No… LOWERING your Ki and HOLDING IT IN are two completely different things. What Trunks did was not hold in his Ki he relaxed it. That’s why they call it lowering your power level and not holding it in. Lowering your power level entails relaxing and producing as little Ki as possible, making God Ki is literally the opposite it requires you to RAISE your Ki while holding it in. Come on now you know you’re being ridiculous.

    “Then explain why Vegeta was as strong as Goku just when Goku arrived on Beerus’ planet. According to you Goku already had God ki. So why not Vegeta if they are equally strong?”
    Goku had felt God Ki. He was as surprised at the feeling of physically doing it himself (as opposed to a form that auto forces that to happen), when he mentioned that Vegeta learned God Ki ‘without the advantage of feeling it first’ like Goku did. It implies a period of learning to do it himself between first getting God Ki and being able to assume the SSJG form, and learning to do that consciously on his own. Otherwise Goku would not also express that the feeling was new to him. Goku and Vegeta both had to learn how to hold in Ki to make God Ki, Goku just had the advantage of having a form that made him feel it first making it easier to learn to do it on his own, but he still had to learn.

  • anonymous

    “When they fight the second time, just before Kale jumps in, watching it again I realize Caulifla indeed had the upper hand.”
    Not at all. Goku clearly was handling both of them fine as a SSJ2 until Kale went beserk again. I will strongly disagree when you say SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ2 goku. You in fact went ahead to say there is no valid comparison with SSJ3 when Caulifla literally says “what amazing power”. As a matter of fact, Goku’s also excited to fight a stronger opponent which is why he challenged Jiren. The anime clearly did wrong in power scaling for this fight.
    >”From there he goes SSJG and is obviously way above them, but again not enough to finger flick them away Beerus style.”
    That is what is actually supposed to happen, but the anime has done wrong just to make this look like a good fight as that’s what gives them $$.

    About God ki:
    First off your explanation of holding ki “to a certain point” is entirely made up by you which is why although the explanation may seem plausible in the beginning, I don’t have to bother trying to contradict it. Coming back to Goku and Vegeta, I am actually referring to a different time. You claim that Vegeta couldn’t have learnt God ki before episode 22, but in episode 18 Vegeta can sense Whis. Moreover, by Episode 18 Goku could use God ki in base and SSJ1, but he also states that Vegeta is his equal in episode 18. therefore Vegeta can also use God ki by episode 18. So your whole argument about God ki is holding ki in has been voided because by the time Goku and Vegeta entered Whis’ Staff, BOTH could already use God ki.

    Now I can argue that Goku and Vegeta actually held in their God ki (NOT regular ki) in order to move freely in Whis’ Staff. Since God ki has been held in for the first time, Vegeta can only sense the “pressure” due to the God ki in his/Goku’s body (not God ki itself as it is held in) which is similar to the pressure he felt from the Gods.

  • Koibito888

    “Not at all. Goku clearly was handling both of them fine as a SSJ2 until Kale went beserk again. I will strongly disagree when you say SSJ2 Caulifla > SSJ2 goku.”
    I just watched it. The fight starts with Caulifla wrecking Base Goku as expected and then Goku starts dodging and catching her attacks, he lands some but they barely do anything to her and they explicitly explain that Goku is using technique and so he can keep up with her random brawler rushing. Goku goes SSJ2 and yeah for a bit he’s keeping up with her but at every moment he raises his power she matches it. He gets in a few hard hits but she just bounces back up, she punches Goku in the face once and he is in clear pain and goes flying before he gets back up and the fight stops before Kale joins.

    Then when they start fighting him they start knocking him around real easily from the start. Goku then starts catching up and once again they explain it’s only due to fighting them sharpening his senses, not his power. But he is then consistently struggling up until they both knock him back, fire blasts, and that’s when he goes SSJ3 needing that to block their blasts – and that wasn’t even their full power. It was only after this that Kale powers up and both her and Caulifla start owning him. It’s then that he goes SSJG and starts wrecking them back. They were stronger than SSJ2 Goku and it’s shown clear as day.

    “You in fact went ahead to say there is no valid comparison with SSJ3 when Caulifla literally says “what amazing power””
    Yeah and right before that Goku says “you might even surpass 3” and then after that they clearly are stronger than SSJ3 because they are fighting SSJG Goku and not getting finger flicked.

    “That is what is actually supposed to happen”
    It’s not though, as I explained above.

    “First off your explanation of holding ki “to a certain point” is entirely made up by you”
    It’s not, it’s very clearly explained in series.

    “but in episode 18 Vegeta can sense Whis.”
    In episode 18, after Vegeta has been there a while, he notices that Whis is back and only then is it noted that Vegeta has, and I quote, “Finally learned how to sense a God’s Ki!”. As in he JUST learned how to even sense a God’s Ki, he definitely can’t fully use it by then. Goku also specifically says that Vegeta “might be stronger than” him. If Vegeta couldn’t use God Ki by then, which if he just by then learned to sense God Ki he definitely hasn’t learned to use it properly.

    “By holding in their regular ki in, they made sure that they couldn’t sense each other’s regular ki. At this point of time the only thing Vegeta could sense was the pressure of God ki in his and Goku’s body which was similar to what he felt from the other Gods, which confirmed that they did indeed have God ki present in them.”
    That is a huge reach for straws just to try and say Vegeta was wrong. Vegeta didn’t say he could suddenly sense God Ki he straight up said it was the secret to God Ki. Holding in your Ki to cause this intense pressure is the secret to God Ki these are the confirmed facts and nothing has purposely proven it wrong meaning that the writer’s intent was to convey to the audience that this indeed was the secret to God Ki.

  • anonymous

    “He gets in a few hard hits but she just bounces back up, she punches Goku in the face once and he is in clear pain and goes flying before he gets back up and the fight stops before Kale joins.”
    Lol so from a single hit you have concluded SSJ2 kefla is stronger than a recovering Goku.
    >Yeah and right before that Goku says “you might even surpass 3” and then after that they clearly are stronger than SSJ3 because they are fighting SSJG Goku and not getting finger flicked.
    Yeah so less than a couple of minutes ago they weren’t beyond 3, and now suddenly they surpassed SSJ3 by so much that they aren’t getting finger flicked by SSG. This is EXACTLY what is called an ASS-PULL. Saiyans don’t get stronger in middle of battles, they do so AFTER recovering.
    >It’s not, it’s very clearly explained in series.
    Nope. They never said anything about “to a certain point”.
    >As in he JUST learned how to even sense a God’s Ki
    Same episode, Whis states Goku and Vegeta have JUST barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a God. So the same thing goes for Goku.
    >”might be stronger than”
    Lol it is very clear in the episode that Goku and Vegeta were equals. Whis himself stated that it was time for Goku to join Vegeta which only reiterates the fact that they were now equals. You have said so many times in your previous replies that Goku could use god ki right after BoG. Now since Vegeta can do the same, it means he can also USE God ki.
    >That is a huge reach for straws just to try and say Vegeta was wrong.
    Nope. In fact what I stated indicates Vegeta was CORRECT in that he confirmed that both Goku and he have definitely learnt God ki.
    >these are the confirmed facts and nothing has purposely proven it wrong
    The FACT that Goku could use God ki by episode 18, and Vegeta being his equal by episode 18 i.e. Vegeta could use God ki by episode 18 clearly disproves your claim.

  • Koibito888

    “Lol so from a single hit you have concluded SSJ2 kefla is stronger than a recovering Goku.”
    No. From a single hit to the face knocking Goku back and causing him pain and having him halt the fight as he gets up. From in comparison Caulifla bouncing back up every single time she was knocked back it was nothing. From Goku being established to be keeping up with stronger opponents due to skill alone I have concluded that SSJ2 Caulifla is stronger than SSJ2 Goku. If you’re gonna reply to a point then actually pay attention to everything I noted about it.

    “Saiyans don’t get stronger in middle of battles, they do so AFTER recovering.”
    Are you freaking kidding me? Do you even watch DBZ? Do you even know who Goku is as a character? Do you actually pay attention to the details in Super? Come on.

    Yes Saiyans don’t get Zenkai Boosts as they fight, but not only is Goku’s defining fighting trait the ability to learn and get better as he fights, but this is literally a trope invented by Goku! They’ve shown MULTIPLE instances of Caulifla and even Kale to a lesser degree doing this, they even directly imply it and show it about Caulifla in this same freaking fight! They establish that’s the reason she’s getting stronger, that’s the whole point is that while they aren’t universal counterparts in the literal sense they are the comparable characters. Vegeta’s got Cabba as his student, Goku’s got the girls, and they’re learning just like him. Come the hell on. It’s an established character trait and if they want to introduce a new character and give it to them then they very well can without it being an asspull you are being absolutely ridiculous. Goku can learn crap in seconds and get better as he fights very freaking quickly, Caulifla who was already zipping passed Goku and many times was explained to be doing just that, can do it by training with the man himself and minutes of getting beat by SSJG. If Goku getting better pushes her and she gets better as she fights (which is established about her) then getting pressured by a stronger form is gonna exacerbate the effect.

    “Nope. They never said anything about “to a certain point”.”
    Correct. But part of it is raising your Ki. If anything has to be reached by raising your Ki it’s ‘to a point’. They don’t just have infinite Ki by raising it a little they gotta raise Ki to a point to accomplish things. If they gotta condense Ki and raise it to create God Ki then it has to be a certain density and height of power, otherwise raising it at all would automatically create God Ki by your logic and thats not whats implied nor is it possible you’re being ridiculous and trying to compare it to obviously incorrect things to downplay it. It’s obvious that power and that pressure has to be increased to a point to activate the power up things dont just happen automatically in DBZ you don’t raise your power a bit and have all powerups ever it’s always about ‘to a point’ ‘to a new limit’ this is freaking DBZ. Come on.

    “Same episode, Whis states Goku and Vegeta have JUST barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a God. So the same thing goes for Goku.”
    Yeah, you proved my point right there, both of them just BARELY reached the level where they can sense God Ki. That’s literally saying they can just sense it, that literally means they cannot use it yet. If they just now, just right now, JUST BARELY got to the point of even feeling God Ki then they cannot use it on their own yet by that point.

    “You have said so many times in your previous replies that Goku could use god ki right after BoG. Now since Vegeta can do the same, it means he can also USE God ki.”
    Goku had God Ki right after he lost the God form is what I’ve said, and that is proven. It doesn’t mean Goku has mastered using it and can continue to do so effortlessly. Goku then saying that he still had to learn to use it like Vegeta while Vegeta didn’t have an advantage like him feeling it first, implies a period for Goku, after being able to feel it, where he still had to learn to use it without the help of the form. Again if they can just barely now sense it then no they could not use it.

    “Nope. In fact what I stated indicates Vegeta was CORRECT in that he confirmed that both Goku and he have definitely learnt God ki.”
    What you stated was made up. If they already had it it would have been said, Vegeta would have noted they had it in them all along or that he could feel it now. No. He said “this is the secret to God Ki” it’s the secret to God Ki. What I said doesn’t indicate, it just says, right there for you to see, ‘secret to God Ki’, confirmed fact.

    “The FACT that Goku could use God ki by episode 18, and Vegeta being his equal by episode 18 i.e. Vegeta could use God ki by episode 18 clearly disproves your claim.”
    The fact Goku implied he still had to learn God Ki after the fact by saying that Vegeta had to learn it like him but without the advantage, the fact that Vegeta straight up notes that ‘holding in your ki and raising it’ is ‘the secret to God Ki’, and the fact that they could only then just barely know how to sense God Ki all proves that they didn’t have it and were equals without the ability to use God Ki, they all directly disprove your claims.