Dragon Ball FighterZ: Goku Black Character Trailer

Posted on January 8, 2018

The highly-anticipated January 26 release date for Bandai Namco Entertainment and Arc System Works’ Dragon Ball FighterZ draws closer day-by-day! To help ease the hunger for this powerhouse of a game, at least for a minute, a new character trailer featuring Goku Black has arrived. Along side Goku Black is Zamasu as his support character to help in battle.

This character isn’t just base level Goku Black, however. It is Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black. Super Saiyan Rose is the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (SSGSS) transformation of a Saiyan that is an actual deity. Is he stronger than our heroes, Goku and Vegeta in Dragon Ball FighterZ? Surely, that’ll be up to you to find the depths of this FighterZ power!

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Dragon Ball FighterZ is a 3-vs-3 team battle fighting game in development by Arc System Works, the same developer as the acclaimed Guilty Gear fighting game franchise. Dragon Ball FighterZ delivers an explosive, action-packed game that combines classic 2D fighting with advanced 3D character models that look and feel as if they are straight out of the Dragon Ball series. It will will incorporate ultra high-speed battles and various flashy moves, including Goku’s iconic Kamehameha. Dragon Ball FighterZ will be published by Bandai Namco Entertainment on January 26, 2018 in North America and Europe and on February 1, 2018 in Japan.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    I hope we get movie character’s in this game



  • Leo LeiGto

    So far it does not look too good for movie characters.

    Roster might already be complete… We do get Tapion and 13. but other than that I hope they announce more than the 8 DLC later.

    The other 4 DLC as far as whats been leaked is Goku Ui, Vegeta Ui, Kefla, Jiren w/PrideTroopers.

    That leaves 2 DLC maybe?

  • Oncle SamGaming

    Sooooooooooo …..

    Vegeta’s gonna turn SSB2 ?

  • Oncle SamGaming

    Just to make it clear : It’s not confirmed its Goku UI and Vegeta UI. It’s Goku ( Normal ) and Vegeta ( Normal ).

  • Paul Watson

    These Don’t Sounds Like Leaks, They Sound Like A Wishlist, Lmao.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Bro. It’s going to be Ui. I’ll put my left nut on the line. Following dokkan, xenoverse… Bamco is 1 office with finite resources. What do fans throw money at happily? Ui DLC. It does not take a stable genius to know they are incoming… or maybe it does? I AM a stable genius! You will see.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lel. Nah. He gonna go UI. Not full UI. But like goku, he will unlock part of UI. I’m guessing attack. Goku is defense. Fusion ha. Ui Gogeta…. omg . I need to change my pants again…. what a mess.

  • Mugen

    Most likely perfect SSB like in the manga, with a hint of UI (offense)

  • Leo LeiGto

    If you followed the leaks from the get go they are legit. Homeboy with the sources has gotten it right. He’s like a Nostradamus of fighterz.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Based on that image it looks like ss2 with blue and a sharp eye

  • Jiren Arizana

    Vegeta SSB2

  • Paul Watson

    According To The Wikia It Looks Like SSJB With Hints Of SSJ Second Grade (The Thing He Used In The Cell Saga Post-HBTC)

  • Paul Watson

    They Do Sound Like A Wishlist Tho. Also Vegeta’s Not Gonna Get UI Tho. That’s The Part That Makes Me Not Believe It.

  • Koibito888

    That whole idea doesn’t make sense. There’s no attack and defense part of UI, or at least not as two separate things where one person could only learn to attack. Attacking in UI is the harder thing because it takes more conscious thought than just dodging so if you can attack without conscious thought then you can do the easier thing, defend, without conscious thought.

  • Koibito888

    There wont be a UI (offense). If you can attack in UI then you can dodge in it.

  • Koibito888

    The only way thats possible is if it’s a mastered form of Rage which wouldnt make much sense. What Trunks did was already SSJ2 with God Ki.

    Given that UI is just a technique that gives a speed boost and is separate from the power boost of ‘breaking your shell’ that Goku is doing, I could see Vegeta learning to ‘break through his shell’ on his own and not dealing with UI

  • Koibito888

    The only difference is that there’s pupils in the eyes (which is a pretty telling difference). Given that we haven’t even had confirmation of if UI makes his eyes silver with pupils or if ‘breaking his shell’ does so maybe it is the latter and Vegeta will be doing so and they’ll use him to finally explain the difference between that and UI.

  • Koibito888

    Vegeta isn’t going to get UI he already said he’s not gonna try for it (and with Vegeta that means he’s skipping it) and even if he did it’s clear he would be doing it in Blue. It’s not UI Goku and Vegeta, it’s base Goku and Vegeta, they are going to be DLC because Base Goku and Vegeta were really well received in Butoden that’s what they are banking on fans throwing money at.

  • Koibito888

    Other, more sensible leaks, say Bardock and Broly will be part of the DLC.

    Honestly other than that I hope we don’t get more movie characters. Too many more important characters that need to be in first before any more movie characters.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Imo I feel like the super characters shouldn’t have been added, would have been best for part 2

  • Anthony_weaver86

    That’s pretty cool

  • Koibito888

    I disagree if only because objectively Super is the new relevant thing, they can’t not reference it.

    In fact as much as I love Super and want more characters from it I feel like keeping the minimum amount of Super characters and choosing what represents the whole arc was the best choice too.

    We really only got 3 Super characters, Beerus just barely counts as a Super character anyway and just really does need to be in all DBZ things from now on, and so at that point we got 2 strictly Super characters who together reference every arc of it. I think that was the best way to both include Super but not at all be too in your face about it.

    In my opinion though most Super characters should be in before some movie characters. I want movies, GT, DB, everything that’s not Z to do what Super did – include the bare minimum to successfully represent that facet of DBZ but keeping it at that. Like I personally want the Bardock and Broly leak to be real and then just let that be the movies and thats it, they really are the face of the movies and could represent the whole of them on their own and I just don’t want any more before more Z characters.

  • Koibito888

    Once again the manga is lesser with it’s details. I mean the anime actually took time to build up Gohan, show him adjusting his life and having some training before crunch time for the tournament making his progression natural and meaningful. Manga’s just like “ope gonna just train up Gohan for a few hours right here out of the blue”.

    And why the hell would Beerus care that the Androids were made? And the androids ‘only enhanced at the cellular level’? What? Come on Toyble your drawing got better but learn to write, damn.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Still going with the “technique” lol. If Hidden potential of your cells unlocking Is a technique… lol. Any how. Nice thought.

  • Leo LeiGto

    I am glad to see a different opinion. In my eyes the anime is horrible and has no idea how to put on a good DBZ like show. The manga on the other hand expertly draws the fights and is not sup par. While the anime fighting animations go all over the place with good character visuals and some horrible rough visuals that honestly offend my eyes when I watch.

    “Gohans” “training” before the tournament is hogwash. Any story they put in place about that would not fit as he is a literal failure of a Saiyan. A school boy, who never trains and is given every advantage in the fighting world. To say he’s as strong as SSB is like spitting in the eyes of hard work, effort, and achievement. No amount of background story is needed for a snowflake like gohan. If you overlook 100 episodes of Dbz, 100 episodes of super, sure Gohan is way cool. Just like rage trunks is cool. Lol.

  • Koibito888

    UI = technique = speed boost

    Breaking your shell = power boost = some sort of unleashed potential state or something.

    Two unrelated things.

  • Leo LeiGto

    False. Ui = cells potential unlocked they move freely without communication= instinct. Instinct is not a technique.

    Breaking shell for vegeta means he is not “focusing”. Vegeta is too rigid. He is relaxed like goku but in offense. Vegeta instinct offense,broken shell = Ui = instinct.

    Not a Technique.

    Instinct is not a technique.

    Both have achieved a portion of UI.

  • Leo LeiGto

    If this were true why can’t goku? Lol?

  • Leo LeiGto

    Both are not the same. To defend like goku you need to clear your mind. Lol like vegeta tried doing but failed. Vegeta style is more geared to precise attacks. That’s why he got a big hit on jiren. I guess it’s probably not That simple but. Nevertheless goku is unlocking a different part of Ui than vegeta.

  • Leo LeiGto

    They make more money releasing the more popular current gen characters that are hyped than a classic roster. Makes perfect business sense.

  • Koibito888

    But see fights is all you have to defend it and contrary to popular belief that’s not all there is to DBZ. Toriyama’s distinct style whether you pay attention to it or not is what makes DBZ what it is and that entails the writing style. There’s more to it and just drawing the fights good alone doesn’t cut it. Toyble’s story telling is trash, his blatant blurting out of every explanation in paragraphs at a time leaves no room for thought or wonder and it just gets to the point of needless narration and is exactly the opposite of how Toriyama writes, being exactly why most fanfiction for DBZ does it in that fans crave more because Toriyama usually gives only enough information. The manga feels like those kinds of fanfictions with how it rambles on and just reveals everything right there. It wouldn’t be the worst thing ever but his explanations never make any sense anyway, I mean believe what you want about the implied contexts not being there in the anime, but at least with the anime things are left unexplained instead of being just plain incorrect.

    Every single thing about Kai themselves Toyble explains for instance is complete bullcrap. So now somehow the rank of being an apprentice Kai magically grants you healing powers from literally nowhere only for them to be taken for no reason once you become a Supreme Kai, all so that Trunks who trained with the Kai that one time technically has healing powers – they literally said he was TECHNICALLY a supreme kai apprentice – that he can just do. I mean hell say what you want about Trunks learning Mafuba fast but he was literally watching a how to vid and practicing under pressure a technique where Saiyans born without tails learn faster anyway versus “oh hey you technically have healing powers so try that” and then he just does it.

    That’s how it always is between the two, every plot point is handled better and with more nuance and buildup in the anime and for each thing the anime leaves vague the manga makes something convoluted and contradictory.

    Each fighter in the U6/U7 tournament (save Botamo who always sucks) was more awesome in the anime and had better, longer fights that the manga more so glossed over for the lesser ones, Goku v Hit was Toyble just wanking SSJG while the anime actually gave Goku a sensible returning technique that was logical anyway, Kai make no sense anymore as everything – even clearly biological traits – come down to rank now and do things like ‘Zamasu was gonna defuse because the half that was a Kai wasn’t a supreme Kai so its not permanent (….What?) but since they are the same person they fused at the molecular level so they stayed fused anyway’ like okay why even make that a plot point, while anything the anime retconned (potara) actually offered a more sensible and consistent explanation than what Z did. Nothing about Toyble’s writing is good or feels like DBZ, he just offers convoluted sounding explanations that people eat up regardless of if they make sense or not and draws cool fights. Which honestly until recently, after he himself said Toriyama told him to work on making his fights more dynamic, the fights weren’t all that spectacular anyway.

    And to your other gripes, good thing they didn’t say he was as strong as SSB then! Just watched the fight again to be sure but yeah as I remembered Gohan definitely wasn’t as strong as Blue Goku. He landed a couple hits and at every hit he immediately noted that Goku was not at full power until he went Blue Kaioken (only twice as strong as SSB) and easily decimated Gohan with a single punch. So yeah they didn’t say he was that strong. Not to mention while the manga is going to just have Gohan train now 24 hours before the tournament, the anime at least had Gohan off and on training for a year getting himself back up to snuff before then training for that time before the tournament giving reasonable build up before he relearns to utilize his mystic state making it an actual natural progression. Progression that again, no, did not make him as strong as SSB.

    Also SSJ2 Ascended is cool. SSJ2 with God Ki is cool. So yes Rage Trunks is cool.

  • Koibito888

    Whis describes UI as something to learn to do, a function of your body achieved by practice. It is a technique to be learned.

    No, breaking your shell is what happened when Goku’s energy was pressured to such a point by his collapsing spirit bomb that it as said, broke his shell, assumedly his limits, causing a massive power boost separate from the speed boost that is UI.

  • Koibito888

    Did you not read what I said? If you can attack in UI you can defend, that does not go the other way around.

    Goku can’t attack in UI because attacking takes MORE conscious thought to do in a state that requires UNconscious thought to maintain. Defending is easier because it takes LESS conscious thought to do.

  • Koibito888

    Attacking is HARDER to do in UI because it requires MORE conscious thought. Defending takes LESS conscious thought.

    If you can achieve the more difficult to achieve thing that requires more conscious thought, you can’t somehow not achieve less conscious thought that’s not possible. If you can do the harder thing, you can do the easier thing.

  • Leo LeiGto

    We are talking about goku and vegeta. It is harder for goku to focus. It is harder for vegeta to relax. Attack or defense is not harder or easier… it depends on who is doing it. Ui is incredibly difficult to achieve.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Instinct is still not technique.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Lol sure. Rage trunks is cool. Huehuehue. That’s a good opinion to have. In my world rage trunks is as trash as Monaka.

  • Oncle SamGaming

    Wow you guys went nuts xD

    And um , what’s with all the stuff you guys say without having it confirmed ? xD

    Only thing confirmed is that UI is something that needs to be learned so it basically means it’s a technique.

    Saying that ” what trunks did is SSJ2 with God Ki ” … um no. That’s your opinion xD Everyone thought of god ki because of the blue aura. But that’s not what it is … until proven otherwise.

    And what’s that about UI only being a speed boost ? Isn’t it ALSO a POWER BOOST ? I mean come on Goku was fighting a wall when he was Blue against Jiren and he managed to at least give him a hit. He was getting kicked by Kefla in SSB Kaioken and wrecked her in UI.

  • Leo LeiGto

    He so will. giggity.

  • Leo LeiGto

    Ill be fine with a regular goku and vegeta. But UI inc. lol.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    True but they would have made money regardless even without super characters, but for the next game the previous super characters. Will lose their hype and possibly not make as much as the first game. If anything 8 feel like they should have just added Hit, the other universe saiyan that looks like Table, the other Frieza race character from the other universe Beerus brother, the telltobby bear, and califla (because we need more female characters)

    But that’s just Imo

  • Anthony_weaver86

    I respect that but I was only think about how good it would be for the fans of super to play the super story mode and it’s character’s

  • Koibito888

    No, we are talking about what Whis directly explained about UI.

    Tien: “If he could attack unconsciously…”

    Whis: “That’s the hard part*. Everyone thinks about what attacks will be effective**. The reason all of Goku san’s attacks were inadequate… Was because in that instance his thoughts were focused on them”

    *So first off immediately we have Whis already confirming you’re wrong given that he literally said attacking IS THE HARD PART

    **Right after we have him clarifying that he is talking about everyone in general, the technique as a whole, not just Goku’s specific application so you are immediately proven wrong again there by Whis’ direct in series explanation. ‘EVERYONE thinks about what attacks will be effective’. Right there, he says right there attacking is harder for EVERYONE because EVERYONE thinks harder to attack than to defend, no matter the circumstance. Attacking takes more thought, not different thought, MORE.

    You don’t suddenly become unable to use even less thought if you’re already able to do the thing that takes the most thought but unconsciously.

  • Koibito888

    Because some of this stuff is confirmed.

    UI was directly stated to be exactly achieved by learning to move without thinking and Whis specifically said that achieving this eliminates the time it takes for the signals from your brain to get to the body allowing greater speed. This is UI.

    You misunderstand. I’m not saying Goku didn’t also get a power boost I’m saying that power boost has nothing to do with UI and Goku achieved this power boost alongside UI. This is proven by the fact that how Goku got his power boost was from his energy being pressured to a point to where he ‘broke his shell’. Nothing about this makes you able to ‘move without thinking’, that makes no sense. It is further evidenced by the fact that when Goku used it against Kefla, he specifically activated UI and dodged MULTIPLE barrages of blasts with his speed boost before he then powered up and gained the aura he did before, very clearly activating them separately and even using one without the other. ‘Ultra Instinct’ and ‘Breaking your shell’ are two different powers Goku achieved at the same time.

    With Trunks, I’m sorry but your logic does not work. Such a logic of “it’s nothing until proven it’s something” only can work if the thing in question is still relevant. Trunks isn’t coming back, Rage isn’t coming back, what we saw on screen is what we got. The blue aura was the exact same visual effect as God Ki, it suddenly increased his power to the point he could fight gods, AND it condensed his muscles – something ONLY God Ki has been shown to be able to do. If it walks like God Ki and talks like God Ki and isn’t coming back to be revealed to be a trick and it’s actually something else, then it’s God Ki. If it’s not, you have to come up with something entirely new to explain what it is in place of God Ki and that’s just not how logical thinking works.

    As for the SSJ2 part, he went SSJ2 and went ascended SSJ2 before then blue Ki with the exact same properties as God Ki condensed his muscles to create this form. It’s SSJ2 with God Ki.

  • Koibito888

    No, but Whis’ direct explanation of it describes a technique.

    In fact you know what, I’m not even going to end it there. That SHOULD be enough, direct character explanation >>>>>>>> a predefined word placed somewhere without explanation every day of the week and you’re already proven wrong there, I should be able to end it just there. But you know why you’re even more incorrect?


    Mittage no Gokui. THIS is the actual true name of the form and directly translates to “Key of Egoism”. THIS is the official unadulterated name. INSTINCT isn’t a real term! It’s the dub name some other guy came up with as a translator! You’re banking your entire argument on a third party inaccurate translation made up to sound cooler.

    Sorry but your made up dub word doesn’t weigh a damn thing against actual in series directly explained info, you are incorrect from every single angle here. Even if it directly translated to ‘Instinct’, that word doesn’t overrule direct explanation. Your argument means absolutely nothing and is invalid.

  • Koibito888

    No, but the anime does well to actually replicate his style. Not to mention that doesn’t change any point that I made about how the manga handles it’s events vs the anime’s. They still do it in a far more built up for and natural way and in the same ways that Toriyama does his plot. Toyble’s manga literally reads like fanfiction. Yes, the devil is in the details and how Toyble handles details is literally how most DBZ fanfiction does it while how the anime does it is literally how Toriyama does it exactly.

    For Gohan that’s fine, but we weren’t talking our personal opinions on Gohan we’re talking objectively how the manga handled his development vs the anime and how one did so better.

    As for Trunks:
    – How the ascended forms work and what they are are cool.
    – SSJ2 is cool.
    – The fact that before Trunks no one ever achieved an ascended SSJ2 state and that he did was a big deal and was cool.
    – Using the already established plot point that God Ki condenses muscle and in of itself is condensed Ki to nullify the adverse effects of Ascended forms by condensing the muscle is just sensible and as such is very cool.
    – Creating both the first instance of a ‘Full Power SSJ2’ is cool.
    – Showing what happens if you are able to adapt God Ki to SSJ2 is cool.
    – SSJ Rage is cool.

    If you only hate it because Trunks, that’s some wicked bias right there.

    Yes, but it also IS about the story, the comedy, the character’s, Toriyama’s unique way of putting it together, all of these things make those fights matter and make them impactful. It took buildup for the characters to get to where they were that was established and continued to work off preestablished abilities being built up. There is also the charm that Toriyama always gave us exactly the info we needed while leaving the rest to context. Z gave us that SSJ2 was just another power up, it was the next level of SSJ, it was first formed by Gohan’s hidden power and then others learned to use it. That’s all that was directly explained or shown of the form. Everything Toriyama gave in interview and databook after and to this day fleshes out the form entirely but it’s not needed, HOWEVER every detail Toriyama has given about SSJ2 can already be predicted if you pay attention/is evidenced already by the series. That’s how Toriyama handles his information, by giving you what you need and then leaving the rest to context – context that he confirms later, but context giving you room to think about it, to try and figure it out based on what’s happening, making you want to think of it more.

    The manga just skips over so much, blurting out the explanations with no tact whatsoever while also not making sense, gets right to the fights and then just because they are explanations at all with no critical thought on if they make sense or not, and just because he draws fights cool NOW, everyone just eats it up but that is crap and that is not DBZ, that is bad fanfiction. The anime handles it like Toriyama, like DBZ actually would, with long placed buildup, giving you the info you need and the blatant context to leave you theorizing about the rest, comedy distinct to his style, character development, the things that actually make the fights anything special.

  • Paul Watson

    It Would Make Sense To Be God Ki Because He Was A Disciple Of Shin In The Manga. He Was A Kaioshin’s Apprentice.

  • Koibito888

    Regular Goku and Vegeta would be better at the moment anyway. Hell if they really did jump the gun and made up an UI Vegeta, then they would have gotten it wrong because there will be no UI Vegeta (or at least no base form UI Vegeta as he’s clearly doing stuff with Blue) and it would have been an incredibly stupid character. UI Goku has like one cool move they could give him. There’s no way they’d do UI for this game, XV most moves are copy pasted from other characters anyway and don’t require full movesets so they can bullcrap an UI (actually kinda worried they’ll screw it up for that very reason just like base Goku Black), ain’t gonna cut it for this game. Not to mention if there is no base UI Vegeta then we already know that the aforementioned Base Vegeta for DLC is just that, base Vegeta and by extension the base Goku paired with him has to be the same.

  • Koibito888

    Yeah but I mean what’s stopping that from being done in a second game just because they put two Super characters in? I mean we don’t even know how this story is gonna work. We know they got time travel and that Super is in it but like who’s to say Super isn’t just gonna be a hub timeline where you meet the other Super characters vaguely and out of place? For all we know they could do a second game with all Super content that focuses on the large amount of Super characters to pick from?

    I don’t think including Hit and Black suddenly ruins that y’know?

  • Koibito888

    Well being a Kaioshin’s apprentice doesn’t really mean much (other than the manga’s ridiculously stupid idea that it grants you freaking healing powers…), he was only about as much of an apprentice as Gohan was, he went and trained a bit. If they didn’t teach Gohan God Ki then there’s no logical reason they would Trunks. Not to mention the manga specifically has Trunks NOT getting God Ki so his manga instance of being a Supreme Kai apprentice would not apply to him getting God Ki which was exclusive to the anime.

    The point is it literally does everything God Ki does while looking exactly like God Ki looks. If anyone tries to say it’s not God Ki then they are literally saying that for no reason there just exists an unknown different Ki that does everything God Ki does but isn’t God Ki, which is a very far reach just to stubbornly not want to believe he got God Ki and just simply isn’t true.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Isn’t that alien guy and Kale going to be in this as well

  • Paul Watson

    Kale Was Never Announced, And What Alien Guy? Jiren?

  • Anthony_weaver86


  • Koibito888

    According to the crazy leaks which I def don’t believe considering they are the ones who said the Base Goku and Vegeta are going to be UI – UI Vegeta is literally not going to be a thing in show now, certainly not a base form one. So anything like Jiren or Kale I do not believe.

    I more so believe, or at least find it more likely, the leaks that claim there are going to be hidden characters such as 21 (the same leaker in a different leak said Towa/Miira were going to be a character so I’m hoping) and that so far the DLC will include Base Goku and Vegeta (while hinting they are in fact JUST base Goku and Vegeta by saying they are being added because the same characters were recieved well in Butoden), Bardock and Broly, without yet specifying the remaining 4 DLC spots that have been confirmed.

    I believe a different one said 13 and Tapion as DLC but I’m skeptical/hopeful that it’s not the case.

    Point being no I definitely don’t trust that Jiren and Kale are going to be in this.

  • Mugen

    Whis clearly explained that Goku still had to”think” about his attacks before doing them, but he didn’t have to think about defending. It’s just a theory, but possible. It would only make sense if the other half of UI goes to Vegeta

  • Koibito888

    Whis exactly said “That’s the hard part. Everyone thinks about what attacks will be effective. The reason all of Goku san’s attacks were inadequate… Was because in that instance his thoughts were focused on them”

    He specifically denoted that EVERYONE thinks about attacking more, that it is an in general how things work that attacking takes more thought and so overall it is harder. Attacking is the harder part, it is not a half and half deal that has parts easier to some harder to others. No, universally, attacking is harder because it takes more thought in a technique that requires to have none at all.

    If you can attack in UI then you can do what requires even less thought that is the easier part, defend.

    Vegeta also said he is going to do things his own way and not use UI so he’s not going to get it anyway.

    The only change visible besides a more imposing aura is that his eyes have pupils. UI is what’s responsible for his speed boost both when attacking and defending. His huge power boost was caused by his energy being pressured to a point that it ‘broke his shell’ (assumedly his limits). Goku even activates UI first against Kefla and dodges multiple blasts BEFORE he powers up with the big aura. It’s not confirmed which ability gives Goku the silver eyes but it gives him silver eyes with pupils. Goku’s eyes were closed against Kefla until he powered up so it’s at least possible that it’s the breaking of your shell/activating that power beyond it that makes the eyes go silver with pupils. Well if Goku went Blue like that those eyes would likely turn blue with pupils.

    Tl;dr I think Vegeta is gonna just pass up UI and is separately going to learn to break passed his shell on his own because he’s Vegeta and he’ll do it in Blue and this is the result. I could be wrong there but it’s a fact that there isn’t two parts to UI and in fact Goku is using two abilities right now – one completely separate from UI further suggesting UI is one thing.

  • Mugen

    I get where you’re coming from, but I stand by what I said. There is literally TWO PARTS to UI to fully master it. Defending and attacking. Since both Goku and Vegeta are opposites, I understand they’ll have two different paths in achieving the same goal. Goku unlocks UI by depleting his power completely which puts him in a survival state of mind, which is to defend. While Vegeta breaks his limits by FORCEFULLY breaking it with blue. Vegeta is all about brute strength and over powering his opponent with a barrage of attacks. So it’ll only make since if Vegeta has the ability to not even think about his attacks before take action. Each UI compliments each of them. Goku is known to let his guard down for being too laid back, which is why he Defend. While Vegeta is too tense, he thinks too much before attacking. I stand by my theory of perfect SSB and UI Offense

  • Koibito888

    Thats just it, what Goku demonstrated was already two separate parts, UI and ‘breaking your shell’. A technique based on not thinking at all fits Goku entirely and brute strength breaking his own shell fits Vegeta entirely. All while exactly in line with what’s been explained.

    Plus if Vegeta says he’s not gonna do UI then he’s not gonna do UI. The manga may make him do it which is unfortunate but for the anime he definitely won’t.

  • Goku Black

    Bitching. I’ll get this after Monster Hunter world and Dissidia NT.

  • Leo LeiGto

    You spelled Migatte wrong. Your point is Moot. Your knowledge of japanese is too low to even beging to debate what word meaning is in this instance. I will instruct you.
    The form’s name in Japanese: 身勝手の極意 Migatte no Goku’i. 身勝手/migatte typically means “selfish”,( this is where you use egoism,AKA selfish) although when you break it down, 身 means body while 勝手 can mean “of one’s own accord”.

    These charcaters are of Chinese origin and you know. lel. Schools in session.
    so his body is selfishly moving.

    ULTRA INSTINCT. NOT a Technique.


    They cant make a character wrong. WHat ever they make is right lol. you might not like it if a Vegeta UI comes out but they are the gods and if the Gods give you poop and call it food, YOU EAT IT.

  • Leo LeiGto

    As far as i know the manga is not out with gohan vs goku yet so i am not sure what your talking about.

  • Koibito888

    Woohoo, congrats to you for clinging onto a spelling error to try and diminish my point.

    Now onto your actual points that aren’t just childish nonsense.

    Nothing of what you said disproves my point. In fact it furthers that because again, ‘Instinct’ is not directly translated. You can give interpretations all you like but if that’s not the direct translation then it’s simply not.

    And again it doesn’t matter. Whis describes it as a technique it’s a technique gg you’re wrong. In plot character statements > preexisting definitions of a name >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a different name merely interpreted from the direct translation.

    ‘Instinct’ was interpreted from something else to sound cool and that’s it. The in character dialogue is what actually gives us info.

  • Koibito888

    No, the entire premise of my comment was that objectively the manga is following a less logical path. Gohan is not my favorite character and this has nothing to do with my opinion of him. It has everything to do with the fact that the anime built Gohan back up for multiple arcs before this. They didn’t make him stronger than Blue they made him able to spar with it and still lose ergo weaker than it, but they did so through a year of training, an actual fight, relearning mystic and then crunch time training which very much logically would put Gohan where we saw him.

    The manga on the other hand has done none of this, Gohan in manga is currently as weak as he was by RoF with no real further training, no extra fights to test his skill and practice, at best he can relearn mystic again and get 24 hours of training that’s starting then. He’s going to be at best Buu Saga Mystic Gohan +24 hours of training. How sudden and little supported his training is is objectively illogical and has no buildup and as such doesn’t mean anything.

    Lol and no, lets not turn DBZ into the crap fanfiction bad fans want it to be. The entire point of that fight was to show where Gohan was, without dribbling on with paragraphs of explanation. 17 showed us where his power was at the time and actually developed his entire character since Cell Saga. THAT’S how DBZ shows info and progresses things, by showing it through context and actually making things happen in the world not just having characters sit around and explain it all. So no Super would be absolutely ruined if they just did episodes of explaining everything. That opinion is literally what’s wrong with the fandom and what’s wrong with most DB fanfiction and why only Toriyama and people who follow his style to a tee are ever able to make good DB products.

    The Vegetto fight was awesome I have no idea what you’re talking about, and them re-explaining the earrings is pretty much the best part. The ‘bad air in Buu’s stomach dissolving the fusion’ never made any sense, was a bullcrap explanation, and was contradictory considering Gotenks, back in Z. Super’s anime actually went and fixed that with a logical, biological explanation.

    The manga made it about Supreme Kai ranking which is the worst explanation in of itself but all so that they could have Zamasu start to split and then not anyway giving the entire extra steps of convolution absolutely no meaning whatsoever. So yeah that fight is actually a perfect example of where the anime did it better.

  • Paul Watson

    The Reason Could Be That Gohan Technically Wasn’t Trained In The Traditional Sense By The Supreme Kais (Shin And Elder Kai). He Basically Learned How To Wield A Sword, And Got A Cool Power-Up From A Ritual. That’s All That Gohan Did, lol.

  • SAB

    The manga has been quite accurate and detail sufficient until now. Since the manga and anime have been taking different routes, you can’t assume the anime events and conclude that the manga (especially one that has been better detailed IMO) lacks explanation just yet.
    Beerus would care about the Androids being made because something like that is debatable (although it would easily fall apart) if you take into consideration the rules of the tournament strictly. And with immature beings like Zeno, even the slightest mistake could lead to erasure of the universe. Besides, Beerus made a similar comment in the anime about the androids so why blame only Toyotaro? If you want to blame someone it should be Toriyama.

  • SAB

    I cannot see the comment you have replied to, but I disagree with a lot of things you wrote. You said Toyotaro’s story telling is trash, but Toriyama’s story telling in Z has been worse and you have to realize that Toyotaro is forced to use the poorly written facts of Z as a premise while writing Super’s manga.
    No, the explanations Toyable gives about Kais do make some sense in the least. It isn’t strange to get a set of abilities which are duty bound and lost once you are relieved of your duty.
    (I do admit I am mad at Toyotaro for giving Goku the ability to do Hakai as I always felt it should have been an ability restricted to Gods of Destruction in duty, but thankfully it never had any effect on the plot except for a couple of panels).

    >”That’s how it always is between the two, every plot point is handled better and with more nuance and buildup in the anime and for each thing the anime leaves vague the manga makes something convoluted and contradictory.”
    No, the anime never explained how Goku SSB+Kaioken overcame Hit’s time skip. Nor did it explain why half of Zamasu’s body rot, nor trunks’s weird SSJ2 form, nor how Trunks sliced through Zamasu with such low power. And in none of these instances did the manga make up something convoluted and contradictory.

    Zamasu had to defuse because neither of them were Supreme kais, plain and simple, also explains why vegito defused. So the anime is the one that either did wrong here, or 1hr had simply not passed. Their refusing to defuse was also sensible since both of them had the same soul despite having different bodies (a few change of words in a single panel of the manga would set it right).
    DBZ never felt like DB, so why do you complain if DBS isn’t like DBZ (and weirdly enough you feel the same isn’t the case with the anime lol)? You may not like the manga but that doesn’t mean it isn’t good. A huge portion of the fanbase likes the manga which means it is good.

    To your last paragraph, FYI gohan never learned to use the mystic state, he just got it out of nowhere in Z. I don’t quite understand your point about re-learning it. When there was no “natural progression” for gohan to get stronger in buu saga why’d you expect to have in it Super?

  • Koibito888

    That’s all trunks would of done too.

    Remember trunks didn’t have extended training. If you remember the whole reason he had healing powers was because he was “technically” a supreme kai apprentice, as in not fully, but technically because of the one time he trained with them.

    The anime implied even less training went on still, that trunks only did what gohan did.

    And again in the manga he never got god ki.

  • Koibito888

    You misunderstand me. I am not taking the anime and holding the manga’s plot points to it nor am I saying the manga lacks detail. I’m saying it has TOO MUCH. All of it’s detail is overdone, laid out in straight paragraphs a lot of the time, with all the reliance of conveying a plot point being entirely in dialogue making the characters out to be narrators. The point where they explain Goku going God in the tournament Whis and Beerus aren’t even in character they are just literally narrating (something Toriyama specifically designed his method of having two characters for, so that things would be spoken about and shown naturally and not narrated, this is something he himself has said). What I had said was that none of those explanations make sense which I will touch on in the other reply as you have some examples there I can reply to.

    You seem to have misunderstood the scene, someone brought up the androids possibly being cheating because they were enhanced. Bulma says no, they were only enhanced at the cellular level so it should be fine (something that is also blatantly untrue it is a fact the androids have mechanical parts in them they were not only enhanced at the cellular level) and only THEN does Beerus go “I’ll pretend I didn’t hear that”. They were specifically making it out to be that Beerus cared about the Androids like he did about Time Travel – the manga was implying that enhancing a mortal being is yet another universal law not to be broken just like Time Travel and that makes no sense.

    The anime brought up that it might be cheating, they did not have Beerus imply that he would have to ignore this universal law that was broken by the Androids existing.

  • SAB

    The manga never implied that enhancing humans is against Universal law. Only you with your bias are misinterpreting the manga.

  • Koibito888

    Lol yes I too see that he deleted all his comments… Lol

    Toriyama’s story telling in Z wasn’t trash though and Z does not have poorly written facts. I would have more to defend if you could give me some examples of info you found to be unclear in Z.

    What Toyble gives about the Kai does NOT make sense. Look, it IS strange in DBZ for a power to be magically granted and taken away by no one. It would be one thing if it was tradition, if it was a purposeful thing that like your Supreme Kai takes away your healing powers when you become a Supreme Kai for some moral tradition but the fact of the matter is that a mere rank, just a symbolic standing between apprentice and master that is literally nothing more than a title, according to the manga, suddenly grants you a power and then for no good reason takes it away. The worst part is this incredibly convoluted explanation was ONLY put in place to give Trunks healing powers once. It has no bearing on anything else and was WAY too much effort for a singular plot point in general, let alone one that was incredibly stupid. Nor does it make sense that they are the gods of creation opposite the gods of destruction, lower level Kai can effortlessly rebuild entire planets, and still somehow they don’t have restorative powers because of their rank? Lol sorry no that’s not logic.

    Honestly Goku doing Hakai once and having it not work wasn’t even that bad. There shouldn’t be powers that are just granted or given, this is DBZ and God Ki is Ki, not magic, everything it can do must be logically achieved. For Goku, who is using God Ki (which in of itself is ONLY compressed Ki and not some magical new kind of Ki out there) to be able to put all his God Ki into a point and release it to replicate the destructive God Ki Beerus is outputting, that’s logical. Yes it was silly to do and had no purpose so yeah, probably shouldn’t have happened, but that’s at least logical and the fact that he didn’t over explain it was a GOOD thing.

    The anime handled all of those instances perfectly.

    – First off Kaioken. We don’t need an explanation, we already know what Kaioken does. It amplifies his stats including speed, in a fight where Goku kept prevailing by moving faster and faster. If anything it explains more about Hit’s technique as a whole and does so all without dialogue, merely context. Goku overcame Hit’s Time Skip by moving faster. A further hint is that Hit himself even points out that Dyspo suddenly moving faster than light is almost exactly like his Time Skip. This was all perfectly explained through context, much like Toriyama does, without paragraphs of explanation.

    – Zamasu’s body uhh… Dude they literally stated it was because Zamasu wasn’t immortal like Black and so his half of the regeneration wasn’t keeping up that was a clearly established fact.

    – Trunks’ new form. He went SSJ2, he went Ultra in SSJ2 (kinda a big deal on it’s own) and he achieved God Ki. That was straight up shown nothing was weird about that.

    – How he could slice Zamasu? That was self explanatory it was a SPIRIT BOMB you know, the attack that literally auto harms evil? The whole ‘Gohan can deflect it if he’s pure of heart because the Spirit Bomb harms evil’ plot point? The Spirit Bomb that has always been able to harm or even destroy enemies stronger than the sum of the people who put their energy into it? How would it NOT cut Zamasu? And with such low power? I mean did you watch how weakened Zamasu became from the moment he fused to that point? And low power? Trunks should have been stronger than Blue Goku by that point, he had God Ki, he was back up on the scale with Goku and Vegeta and using double the power of Blue what do you mean low power? See this is what I mean, the context of all of this was explained clearly in context, it didn’t need exposition because it was self explanatory and that’s how Toriyama always wrote.

    I get why Zamasu had to defuse I’m saying putting that on the once again arbitrary, entirely symbolic rank of Supreme Kai, instead of having it be just based on the biological race of Kai in general is complete bullcrap. I’m saying that if Zamasu was going to stay fused anyway then it was entirely pointless and too convoluted to just say ‘oh well he was going to defuse but because of this new, very arbitrary reason of they have the same soul they were able to stay fused’, the anime just leaves it up to a racial trait of ‘all Kai in general stay fused’ which is self explanatory, physical in nature, and makes sense given that it’s their item. For it to boil down to your rank within that race places it entirely on a symbolic reason that has no actual meaning. The anime did this far more logically, with less explanation, and in of itself was self explanatory.

    The difference in DBZ not feeling like DB and Super not feeling like Z, is that Z is what made the series. DB is cool, I personally love it, but if DB was where that ended it would not have become the beloved series it has been, it would have not been influential to anime as a whole, it just would not have been a thing. Z was the perfected recipe to something that was kinda neat. DB to Z manga wise isn’t even another series it’s all one manga that slowly added aspects that were still true to it’s original nature but just enhanced it. If Super wanted to replicate that it would have to start out being like Z while slowly introducing it’s own elements to it. It can’t just be different in general, your example is way too broad and takes no specifics into account. Besides, at this point Z is back because we loved Z, it’s not continuing because the writer had different artistic views after a while and evolved his style again – that was DB to Z. It’s back because Z made it what it was and the fans wanted more of what it was and it serves as a continuation to Z, not a part 3 to this multiple part anime of vastly different sections. It needs to stay true to Z as it’s continuation and keep with the entire reason it was brought back – to give us more Z.

    And no, popularity does not mean it’s good. People like AF but that was the worst sin that the fanbase ever created. A lot of people like the crappiest pieces of DB fanfiction but that doesn’t make it good. People like those things because it’s self indulging. I mean I find it fun to imagine Buu showing up and absorbing all the villains to make a cool ultra villain of power, is that good writing that should be canon? HELL NO. Self indulgence is not the mark of quality writing and Toriyama has always explained things through context and left just enough open to keep thinking about it, that’s why most fanfiction gives uber amounts of exposition and just limitless powerup and all this because it’s what fans like to think about, that doesn’t make the actual products well written. Same here, Toyble writes like a fanboy, he overexplains everything in your face leaving nothing up to thought and the fans who crave info eat that up – this does not mean that the manga is good. The worst part is as I’ve pointed out, his explanations don’t make sense. The fans of the manga don’t care, they just wank to the fanboy writing in which is just slaps all the explanation out there.

    The anime is popular too, in fact its more popular and widely known than the manga. I wouldn’t use that as a defense for the anime, nor can anyone say “people like the manga more so the manga’s better” like some try to do even though statistically that’s false – the popularity is an invalid point. GT was unpopular and non canon, these aren’t the reasons it was bad it was bad because it betrayed the style and themes of DBZ while being contradictory and poorly written. You can only look at the objective moves these products are making in this kind of discussion and doing what Toyble is doing is bad, it’s not DBZ, it is literally written like a fanfiction and that has never been a good thing for any DB thing ever.

    As for my last paragraph you seem to misunderstand the whole thing. Gohan had to re-learn Mystic in Super before the tournament as he was training with Piccolo we saw this happen, and it probably will happen in the manga too. The difference is that in both incarnations Gohan should be severely weakened from not training by the beginning of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. You ask why do I expect natural progression in Super? Because the anime already gave us natural progression with Gohan’s power. We had him resolving to get stronger at the end of RoF and then repeatedly saw him training sense. We had Gohan training in the background for three whole arcs with Piccolo, having real fights push him further, and THEN we get him re-learning Mystic before having crunch time of training for a day with Piccolo. This is build up, this is logical natural progression, this is real character development for Gohan as we watch him have to balance out work with fighting which is a character development we never got from him before.

    The manga on the other hand doesn’t mention Gohan until now. So there is no buildup, there is no character development, there is no suspense, it’s just “oh uhh… Gohan’s still really weak so lets train him for a day so he can fight in the tournament” – the anime has had him preparing for this for a YEAR in plot all while developing his character. What the manga is doing there is inferior writing.

  • SAB

    I’ll reply in a bit lol time to watch DBS.

  • Koibito888

    I hope you’re right, but I’m reading it again.

    Chapter 30 page 28

    Vegeta: But she’s an android, is that allowed?

    Bulma: It should be fine since she was originally a human. She was just enhanced into a super human level at a cellular level, right?

    There is no reaction from Beerus in this panel. Nothing when Vegeta mentions she’s an android or that it could be cheating, it’s only after Bulma talks about how they’ve been enhanced and AFTER she conveys to the reader that it would in fact not be cheating. After it is established that it would not be cheating she looks to Beerus who is visibly agitated.

    This suggests his reaction was not contributing to the concept of whether or not it was cheating because it was established one panel prior.

    So I hope you’re right. That wouldn’t fix the heavy inconsistency that the androids do in fact have mechanical parts in them that Bulma just drops the ball on here, but it would at least remove the stupid idea that Beerus has any reason to care. The anime truly did better by just not making Beerus have any reaction to this.

  • SAB

    I think it does relate to cheating. By the way rewatch episode 83, the exact same scenario happens, except that vegeta is replaced by supreme kai and bulma is replaced by goku and beerus says the exact same thing. I am 100% sure you did not assume enhancing humans is against the universal law when you saw that lol.
    It is only thanks to Zeno’s immaturity that Beerus is scared to take that risk, but he has no choice as they are they best bet to be included in U7 team.

  • SAB

    My problems with Z include inconsistent PLs (why Super Trunks was stronger than Cell when he couldn’t even defeat a Cell Jr, inconsistent multipliers from data books that Toriyama himself approved), Mystic/Ultimate Gohan, unclear origin of Cell etc.
    DBS has been all about Gods and Angels. Having an ability as a part of duty and losing it isn’t nonsensical in DBS IMO. On the contrary, it wouldn’t make any sense for a mere mortal to possess the ability to wipe out souls using Hakai. Supreme Kais aren’t supposed to venture out into battles so I don’t see a purpose for them to possess a healing ability. it’s not a simple rank difference between an apprentice and master. The supreme kai has his life bound to the God of destruction as well and those things don’t happen in logical ways. So the apprentice still needs to undergo some sort of ceremony to become a full time supreme kai. Even the anime implies that gods of creation are opposites of gods of destruction so what’s your problem with only the manga?
    This is NOT DBZ and no nothing in the manga indicates God ki is compressed ki. I don’t care what the anime says about this but the manga has treated God ki differently. And it IS logical since you have to train with an actual God to tap into God ki, which makes it divine and pure. The anime is like everybody can get God ki – so what is point of even calling it God ki??. I don’t have problems with you calling the anime better, but you can’t straight out call the manga ill-logical and crap.

    So your saying Goku avoided a time skip by moving quickly? Come on, do you not even understand what stopping of time means?? And no Dyspo didn’t do that. He never let Hit use the Time skip. you can re-watch that episode. He states that Hit makes a certain movement before activating Time skip and Dyspo literally abused that weakness.
    Lol so one of the Zamasu’s wasn’t immortal so the entire right half is rotten? I thought fusion was a total merging of bodies but thanks to you I have to change it to left half = one fusee and right half = another fusee.
    Yeah Mega ssj2, Ultra ssj2, …. Maximum-over ssj2, what more crap do you want? God ki…. Trunks….. I don’t remember seeing that in the subbed text.
    The spirit bomb? sorry never heard of that. Is it the same one Goku tried so hard to push against Kid buu? the one which didn’t kill frieza and vegeta? OHH wait you must be talking about the one that killed Omega Shenron effortlessly right??
    Yeah Zamasu became soo weak that final kamehameha didn’t affect him, and one punch KOed both Goku and Vegeta, and he basically wiped out the whole earth after you know “merging with the whole universe”.
    Stronger than Blue Goku…. trunks? What anime are you watching again? If DBS, WHY is he stronger than Blue Goku? How did he learn your so called God ki?
    What do you mean Z made the series? It’s only because Z was aired in the States before DB. DB was already popular where it aired before Z. DBS is nothing like Z, neither plot wise, nor fight wise. Bringing up this point is irrelevant.
    OK popularity doesn’t mean something is good – in that case a single biased opinion of yours doesn’t make it bad.
    “The fans of the manga don’t care, they just wank to the fanboy writing in which is just slaps all the explanation out there.”
    ->More like “the fanboys of the anime ….. all they care about is spreading hate on the manga”.

    About Gohan, when did he even “learn” the mystic form? Why does he have to “re-learn” it? There wasn’t any “natural progression” in Z, so you of all – who wants “more Z” – shouldn’t be expecting natural progression in Super. Toyotaro won’t do something so stupid as train gohan for simply 24 hrs. He might even do better by sending him to the HTC, or something justifiable.

  • Koibito888

    I can’t see your reply on here, only on Email, so I’ll reply here.

    First off, Trunks was only stronger than Cell in Ultra, which he did not use against the Cell Jrs so no inconsistency there.

    Uhh… What’s inconsistent about SSJ2 being double SSJ1 and 3 being quadruple that? If anything SSJ2 just being a limit breaker made by having that SSJ activating moment on top of mastered SSJ, the fact that it doubles it actually makes SSJ2’s make the most sense.

    What’s wrong with Mystic?

    How is the origin of Cell unclear? What?

    Having an ability that naturally appears and disappears, given and taken by absolutely no one, a natural and automatic gain/loss of an ability, based on a symbolic and given rank, that makes absolutely no sense.

    All Ki things in DBZ are learned, are physical. God Ki is just compressed Ki. There is no magical granting or anything for Ki in DBZ. If Hakai is a god’s technique then anyone who can use God Ki should be able to do it.

    “Supreme Kais aren’t supposed to venture out into battles so I don’t see a purpose for them to possess a healing ability”
    Okay then there’s no reason for their apprentices to have one.

    It IS a simple rank. In fact, in the anime Gowasu even demonstrates the ability to temporarily make someone a Kai just by letting Zamasu borrow his earring. It was shown to be entirely symbolic. The God of Destruction and Kai being linked first off has never been shown to be some sort of ceremony. In fact there is no ceremony, there is no handing off of the title, Shin became Supreme Kai by default and no one even existed to give him the rank, to induct him, it was just automatic that he became the Supreme Kai without Beerus dying just because THE Supreme Kai died. So there is no ceremony, the rank itself is symbolic and as long as the position is filled Beerus doesn’t die. This is a natural law between two positions of cosmic power. This can be true logically. But for actual abilities, powers to be granted by no one and to be taken away by the higher position with no conscious interference, that is something entirely different. Hell it’d even be better if they said the Supreme Kai was granted healing powers because it’s the higher position and literally the god of life. That still wouldn’t make sense given that there being an apprentice means they have to be trained and as such should have to learn everything they have, otherwise why arent they just magically granted all the powers, but it still wouldn’t be as stupid as the lower rank gaining an ability from nowhere only for it to be taken by nothing or no one because you go up a rank.

    Yeah and the manga has still yet to give an explanation of how God Ki works. And I’m sorry, having different story elements is one thing, but if they have differences in how entire powers work that will be the worst thing the manga could do. There would be no point in the manga being DBZ, if he’s gonna straight up be different to the point of the same power having entirely different rules he should just be writing his own manga at that point.

    “you have to train with an actual God to tap into God ki, which makes it divine and pure”
    The simple fact that you have to TRAIN at all means anyone can do it. If any being can go to Whis and be trained to use God Ki, which is the case for both manga and anime given that Whis’ job is to train mortals to become gods of destruction in both, then that means God Ki HAS to be something that can be learned which means it HAS to be the case that anyone can learn it. The fact that the Gods of Destruction aren’t just born like that and have to learn it means God Ki has to be a learned ability.

    What’s the point of calling it God Ki? Because it’s a state of Ki incredibly more powerful than regular Ki that is the minimum requirement of becoming a God, there’s your point. This is DBZ. Anything with Ki is physical and natural and things you have to learn, God Ki would be stupid and unfitting to this series if it was some magical mystical other level of Ki just granted to you, everything is biological and logical. Magic in the DB universe has always been strictly separate from that, unless God Ki was magic itself, it HAS to be a logical physical thing that can be learned to do and if it was magic it sure as hell wouldn’t be anything any main character would be dealing with. God Ki is most logical and best as a thing everyone can learn and it still has a point being called God Ki.

    I’m saying Kaioken let Goku overcome time skip and Kaioken boosts stats and so that’s what let him. If you know what Kaioken does, then you have your answer to how it overcame time skip, because it’s the only thing Kaioken does. The question is how does Time Skip work in a way that lets speed defeat it.

    “Come on, do you not even understand what stopping of time means??”
    Come on, do you not even understand they specifically said Hit was NOT stopping time but skipping it meaning that any preconceived notions you have about stopping time are moot and inapplicable??

    I didn’t say Dyspo did that. I said Hit did that. I said that Hit pointed out that Dyspo’s sudden movement – his ability to suddenly increase his speed passed light speed – was like he was using Hit’s own Time Skip against him. He specifically noted that a character moving at super speeds reminded him of his time skip, add that Goku beat Time Skip by moving faster, well you have your answer.

    Or just that if one of the fusees has some sort of biological deficiency it will manifest on one side of the body as an artistic choice by the artist to show that it’s being directly caused by one half lacking something. Doesn’t have to mean fusions are literally two halves of a body stuck together.

    You don’t have to see God Ki Trunks in the subbed text. You see it by the fact that he literally has God Ki on him and this Ki shrunk his muscles – something only God Ki does. Please tell me you’re not one of those people who still somehow thinks it was something other than God Ki that entire way of thinking is stupid.

    Yeah, the Spirit Bomb that completely obliterated Kid Buu the second it connected. The Spirit Bomb that didn’t hurt Gohan because he was pure of heart yet utterly ruined Vegeta. The one that didn’t kill Frieza but sure as hell left him heavily damaged despite the energy of everything present combined not logically being stronger than Frieza. In a condensed and sharpened state – sharpened Ki might I add being something that has always been shown to cut characters far stronger than them. Krillin’s destructo disc is entirely based on this concept even from the beginning when it would have sliced right through Nappa despite the power difference. So you have a move that has always been able to hax harm evil, hax harm beings stronger than the power of those that put into it, in a condensed state AND sharpened. Why the hell WOULDN’T it cut Zamasu?

    Why is Trunks stronger? Because if you take away God Ki from Goku, Trunks by now should logically be stronger than mortal Goku. Add God Ki and this scale should remain the same. Trunks goes SSJ2 in this state and boom he’d be double that. Of course add God Ki and one form higher and he’d be stronger than Goku, and THEN he absorbs Spirit Bomb.

    Yeah and if it was DB that made it here first most kids back then would have not cared as hard. DB isn’t what influenced anime as a whole, Z did. And Super’s anime IS written like Z, very closely in fact. The point however was that DB and Z weren’t different because thats how it should be and that each series should be different. Its that DB became complete and became the great anime it was today by evolving into it’s second half that was Z. Just because it’s Super doesn’t mean it can or should just be different from Z, it means it should continue from Z and continue to be what’s great about it.

    And I’m not saying my single opinion makes it bad. I’m giving you the reasons an examples of his writing being poor. I never once posed the argument ‘I think its bad so it’s bad’, I’ve given plenty of examples of entire bullcrap where the anime did things that actually felt more like Z. That’s the entire point of this conversation bringing up the reasons it’s bad, not once has that been based on simply the idea that ‘I don’t like it’.

    DB fanfiction is bad 99% of the time and so a DB manga doesn’t need to be written like a fanfiction.

    I hope you’re right, I hope he takes him to the HTC.

    Gohan learned Mystic when Old Kai told him how to access the power after unlocking it for him. This was power that was not given to him it was his power that was pulled from him, and he lost it by Super from not continuing to practice this state and we literally saw him on screen having to re-learn it.

    Most if not all of the powerups in Z were natural and made sense and had some sort of logic behind them. What are you talking about?

  • Koibito888

    Aaaaaaaand it looks like I was completely right to a tee.

  • SAB

    If trunks was stronger than cell, he’d need just aura to wipe out the Cell jrs like Gohan did so why did he not use it?
    idk but Cell > 7 cell jrs (he spawned them) > 7 super saiyans? so shouldn’t cell be around 7 times a SSJ? How did Gohan SSJ2 beat him effortlessly?
    Mystic was an asspull how many time is gohans true potential extracted? and why can he not go SSJ if his full potential is extracted?. Nvm about cell, just a time travel thing. Most viewers won’t care.
    Can kami make the dragon balls? yes. Can kamicollo make the dragon balls? No. Why didn’t you get pissed of then?
    Again DBZ is NOT DBS. Things change. God ki = compressed ki as in?. I didn’t say Hakai is a God’s technique. I said it should be reserved for the position of a God of Destruction and no one else.
    Yes there is no reason that apprentices should have one, Toyable used it since the only apprentice kai in Z had the ability.
    Temporary Supreme kai is a position given only to use the time ring, nothing more than that. And can you give me a LOGICAL reason why Kaioshin and Hakaishin are bound by life? You know they haven’t been born at the same time so how is their life linked?
    No, Daikaio wasn’t dead, just absorbed by Buu. ever heard of things going “off-screen”? they wouldn’t show a ceremony in shonen?
    I haven’t understood what your interpretation of God ki is. Can you point me to a video/wikia where it is explained?
    I never said everyone cannot learn it. Just that they must train with actual gods. Didn’t you say something about “room for thought”? Ironic since you aren’t giving anybody any room for thought by saying “it is unfitting for the series”.

    “Hit was NOT stopping time but skipping it”
    -> icy background….. opponents turning grey….. opponents getting freezed…… how is that not stopping time? The octopus guy clearly said Hit was STOPPING TIME for 0.1s for everyone else as a result of which his movement for that 0.1s seems like he actually skipped time. He also STOPPED time when he was assassinating that gangster boss.
    And no dyspo isn’t using time skip. He is moving fast and attacking hit before hit can activate time skip. But in goku’s case we saw goku moving AFTER hit activated time skip.

    No the rot should be evenly spread along in that case. The anime did bad here but you simply push it onto the artist that’s no way of defending it.

    “this Ki shrunk his muscles – something only God Ki does”
    -> LMAO artistic choice bro… Yuya Takahashi’s animations aren’t like that. The ki doesn’t shrink muscles. Oh yes I think it is something other than god ki…. something called BS.
    “Yeah, the Spirit Bomb that completely obliterated Kid Buu the second it connected”
    What did you watch lol?. Goku couldn’t even push it without recovering and becoming SSJ.
    Trunks is stronger than Goku in base form …. agreed. But he got his ass kicked by SSR Goku black and yet Vegeta was stronger at one point than SSR Goku black. If trunks is SSJ2 god ki, why is he weaker than Vegeta? and by no means is he weaker than Goku. So NO Trunks was NOT using God ki. He never trained with a Hakaishin so he cannot tap into God ki.
    Zamasu was unaffected by a Final Kamehameha from Vegito Blue. A cheap attack like this would make no sense.

    “DB that made it here first most kids back then would have not cared as hard”
    Lol how do you know that when DB was a success in Japan where it aired earlier?
    ” I’m giving you the reasons an examples of his writing being poor.”
    Those reasons are bad ACCORDING TO YOU. They aren’t even logically wrong. You simply don’t seem to like it so you spread hate about it ….. typical of an anime fanboy. I’m not saying the anime is bad right? coz it isn’t, it’s enjoyable. It may have errors but is still enjoyable. The manga is not bad either it has it’s own ways of dealing with the plot where it gives reasonable explanation.

    If you find the mystic form logical can you explain that in detail? Especially if it was his own power why turning SSJ doesn’t make him more powerful? Only after watching super, I thought Gohan tapped into God ki way back in Z due to Old kai’s magic. Even in that case i don’t see why he would lose his SSJ form. If you have a better explanation do share it with me.

  • Koibito888

    Once again for some reason your comment just does not exist outside my email so I’ma respond to that on this one.

    They said the Cell Jrs were just as powerful as Cell. Not Ultra Trunks < Cell Jr. So your entire scale is off.

    Why else would Kid Gohan's potential be lower than Teen Gohan's and so on? I mean think of it like a muscle, a child's muscle would never be able to be as fully developed as an adult's, it's the same here. Potential isn't this predetermined fate it's a physical, logical thing, it's the highest potential point your body at current can hit, if your body becomes more developed your strength will be higher. Gohan had his potential unleashed as a child at that point, his 'teen' (he wasn't really a teen yet) self would be able to be stronger than his kid self logically. He trained up to his potential then in Cell Saga. He then didn't train and so not only got weaker creating a bigger gap between his power and his potential as he grew up and so his potential would. Old Kai not only pulled out his potential then to where he would have been at if he kept training, plus SSJ's powers (as shown when he was told to go SSJ and he tried, but instead just powered up and didn't transform) given that SSJ is a natural evolution that he already had just all accessed naturally.

    Why didn't he go SSJ when Guru unlocked his potential? Because he didn't have SSJ yet, SSJ wasn't then part of his potential.

    When did they say that Piccolo/Kami fused couldn't make Dragon Balls?

    Things change, but when the thing is good, and when the thing is brought back because we want more of the thing, then the new thing should follow what the first thing did right especially as a direct continuation.

    "God ki = compressed ki as in?"
    Are you asking me if I'm saying God Ki is compressed/held in Ki? Yes. It was explained.

    I know what you said, I know you said it should be reserved for the gods and no one else. I said that if it's a technique done with Ki not limited to a racial trait then anyone can learn it.

    Temporary Supreme Kai is not an official rank, it's just supreme Kai. The Time ring, as far as we know, is an item specifically made to only be able to be used by Supreme Kai and as such is made to recognize a rank. Potara earrings can be used by anyone, fusion traits depend on the biology of the fusees, a rank should have no bearing on a biological reaction to an item who's use itself is not limited by rank.

    Physical reason why they are linked? No. Cosmic order is a thing however. They are linked under the same universal laws of physics that state that universes can be twins. Just vaguely stating the positions are linked and if one dies the other does is enough. It's self explanatory.

    Daikaio was sure dead enough for Shin to be linked to Beerus instead of him. And yes, off screen is possible but anyone who could have inducted Shin as a Supreme Kai officially is gone, it's just him, no one's around to give him any sort of induction he just auto became the Supreme Kai and the one linked to Beerus.

    Okay now I get it you don't understand what I'm talking about how God Ki works. I can't find the clip but I can tell you it's Ep. 22. Goku and Vegeta training in Whis' staff and they cannot move as they output Ki. Vegeta thinks about it and holds in all of his Ki and he can move. Goku does the same, explains that holding it in like that creates a huge pressure to which Vegeta expresses must be the secret to God Ki:

    Vegeta: -Concentrating as his aura disappears and sinks into him- If you increase your energy and control it so it doesn't leak out, you can move.

    Goku: -after pulling his aura in- We can move at last, but this is harsh. (the dub even adds 'this is demanding keeping it all inside though')

    Vegeta: So this is a god's energy? The pressure inside is so intense.

    God Ki is just another technique like everything to do with Ki in DBZ. Ki is always purely physical and logical and has always been strictly separated from the illogical – magic. God Ki is just the result of held in, compressed Ki that creates a much higher pressure, a much higher concentration of it instead of pumping out more.

    You don't have to train with actual gods, you have to train with/be instructed by anyone who knows how to do God Ki. They don't need the rank to teach it. You are also misusing my statement about leaving room for thought. They did leave room for thought, that's why you and I are debating all this using clues from the series. Logical thought is looking at the evidence to determine the most likely scenario – so yes I'm saying what's unfitting to the series to determine what fits most ergo is most likely based on logical thought that they left room for, instead of just over-expositioning paragraphs right as soon as they're introduced leaving nothing to be found out naturally over time, it all just gets narrated.

    How does it not stop time? Because they specifically had a point about how it looks like he's stopping time but he's actually just literally skipping it.

    I didn't say Dyspo literally used time-skip I said that Hit remarked that Dyspo's ability of sudden speed increase felt just like getting attacked by Time Skip. Saying it resembled it.

    Where's the precedence that says it would have to spread across the whole body? Tell me exactly where that directly contradicts a strict point of fusion. If it does not contradict anything that was directly established to be a fact then no you have no basis to say that the rot would absolutely have to spread evenly across the body because there is no direct fact that says that has to be the case.

    No, you can't just look at a thing that looks and acts like God Ki, say it's something else, and have no excuse for it. That is you blatantly just trying not to believe it's God Ki just because you don't believe it. If you say it's not God Ki then you are saying it has to be something else and chalking it up to BS with no concise answer on what it really was they were trying to portray is not good enough. It's God Ki.

    Yeah and with Kid Buu that's why I said "ONCE IT CONNECTED" as in after Goku successfully pushed it into him. Buu should have been stronger than the combined power of humans and plants and base form weakened characters and yes Goku has to physically move the attack but once it actually hit Kid Buu it destroyed him entirely despite this fact.

    "Vegeta was stronger at one point than SSR Goku black. If trunks is SSJ2 god ki, why is he weaker than Vegeta?"
    Because Vegeta is stronger than Goku. Vegeta has always had a higher potential than Goku yet has been held back by his pride (as is the entire basis of his character development) and this was directly shown when SSJ2 Vegeta was able to actually fight Beerus who was putting up an ounce of effort, than SSJ3 Goku did against completely casual Beerus. Vegeta powered up beyond everyone several points in the Black arc namely each time he did match SSJR Black. That's how Vegeta is stronger than Trunks because Vegeta's that much stronger than Goku.

    Trunks used God Ki. He doesn't have to train with someone of rank he has to train with anyone who knows how to use God Ki. And I mean come on, he fought against and alongside Gods that entire arc, had Vegeta show him Blue, Trunks immediately gets determined to get stronger and spends the rest of his off screen time focus training as we see the few scenes they go back to him after that. And just look at his reaction, out of the many things that Trunks learned throughout the arc, Rage was the one thing he never questioned. Every piece of new info he learned – about Gods of destruction, about the current timeline, when Spirit Bomb appeared, when it went into his sword, every single thing he was visibly shocked about, except Rage. Not even once. He knew what he was trying to do and it was only through all of that and then that last push moment that he managed.

    It's not a cheap attack. Trunks stronger than Goku using a hax technique made to harm evil stronger than it condensed into a sharpened blade which again has been shown to be able to cut enemies stronger than it. It's a hax and broken as hell attack that by all logic would hurt Zamasu.

    These explanations in the manga are insensible entirely and I've thoroughly explained why.

    You're asking why Gohan lost SSJ/couldn't go SSJ on Mystic? Well I touched on it earlier but SSJ power is literally incorporated into it as part of his natural potential as a natural evolution. Not only does when Old Kai describe that he can raise power beyond limits does Goku literally say "oh we can all do that" and go SSJ, but when Old Kai was asked how Gohan accesses this power he literally told him to "just become that super whatever" and Gohan tried only that but just powered up and didn't transform.

  • Koibito888

    And look at that, UI doesn’t even cause any physical change in the user and is proven separate from the power boost as I said.

    It is only a speed boost achieved through a skill to achieve a certain way of moving that is learned by the user.

    That is what DBZ would call a technique.