Dragon Ball Super Episode 127, 128, 129 Spoilers

Posted on February 10, 2018

The countdown to Dragon Ball Super’s unwanted end has begin. There are just a few more episodes left in this fantastic series, which will air its last episode at the end of March, at least for the foreseeable future until the animation studio behind the series, Toei Animation, announces new details. As for the up-coming episodes, spoilers have been revealed for Dragon Ball Super episode 127, 128, and 129.

Dragon Ball Super Episode 127 Spoilers (Episode Title: The Approaching Wall! The Final Barrier of Hope!!)
Airs on February 11, 2018. Universe 7’s Son Goku and Vegeta face off against Jiren despite being injured head to toe. Their attacks, however, have absolutely no effect on Jiren, and the two just steadily continue to wear themselves out. Meanwhile, after observing the situation for awhile, Universe 7’s Android 17 stealthily approaches Jiren. 17 creates numerous barriers in an attempt to protect Goku and Vegeta and a uses a life-risking strategy, but…

Dragon Ball Super Episode 128 Spoilers (Episode Title: With Noble Pride to the End! Vegeta Falls!!)
Airs on February 18, 2018. Thanks to Android 17 sacrificing himself to assist them, Goku and Vegeta have evaded Jiren’s attack. However, Goku collapses from exhaustion, leaving Vegeta to face Jiren alone. Vegeta is nearly at his physical limit and now fighting through sheer willpower, with Goku diligently observing! Jiren then closes in for the finishing blow, knocking Vegeta and his pride out of the tournament. And so, only an exhausted Goku and Universe 11’s Jiren remain in the arena. What feelings well up inside Goku? And what is this certain change that comes over Goku’s eyes?!

Dragon Ball Super Episode 129 Spoilers (Episode Title: Transcending the Limit! Mastering Ultra Instinct!!)
Airs on March 4, 2018. Two minutes remain in the Tournament of Power. At last, only Goku and Jiren remain in the arena. Goku is stuck in a tough fight against Jiren’s overwhelming attacks. Just then, however, Goku’s pupils start shining silver.




Source: Herms98

  • PurexedSolitude;

    I can’t believe they’re actually going on two breaks.

    What’s the point in prolonging the time before the hiatus?

  • Mugen

    Freeza’s playing possum somewhere. Lol

  • Ryan House

    I cannot believe they are going to end dragonball super. I would of liked to see Goten, Trunks, Pan, Bulla and Marron age. I always heard that super was going to end meeting up with what happened in the end of dragonball z. they could make the series way longer. I didn’t like GT at all. but I will miss dragonball super if it ends. I love having something to watch every sunday. Akira Toriyama still does the art work for the Dragon Quest series of Games the latest one is Dragon Quest XI which comes out real soon.

  • 4thhh

  • Series isnt over it will continue next year

  • KDG

    I wouldn’t mind an actual sequel to Z in the future.

  • Scott Baker✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

    the said its going in Haitus the anime the manga will continue on even past TOP and with the new movie (like apst 2) continueing on this december. we can assumje db super anime will return to cover it..

  • Scott Baker✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ ᵃᶜᶜᵒᵘᶰᵗ

    the manga. is behind bit by time manga catchs up to end of this tournoment the movie will be out

  • Exkirion

    Oh goodie, it’s the Goku wins in the end show again.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    The manga being behind is not an issue seeing as how the anime began first anyway.

    Plus even by the time the movie comes out, the manga will still be significantly behind in terms of pace since it only comes out monthly.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Goku’s the main character….you expected something different? In Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, do/did you expect Rock Lee, Chad, and Franky to beat the arc villain?

  • AKDragonPC

    No surprise here, same as usual. This whole saga has been a borefest imo; no build up or tension just pointless fights. The best part of episode 126 imo was the majin vegeta vs buu flashback. If it’s going on hiatus then maybe they can work towards better standards of animation and more consistent and closer to DBZ’s like they did in DBS 2 episodes a while back.
    If it’s going to get cancelled i’m not gonna miss it, I’d rather it gets re-done by another studio in a few years in a seasonal format like one punch man which follows the manga version of DBS.

  • KDG

    That has not been confirmed.

  • KDG

    I knew that justice stuff was all crap on Jiren’s part.

  • anonymous

    He did say strength is justice though. Trust was all crap to Jiren.

  • Pimpin Curly

    Why would you want it redone when you can get more original Dragon ball stuff? fans are weird man…

  • anonymous

    that depends on the animators who did the episodes. The 2 episodes you mention I assume are i) Goku SSG vs Kale and Caulifla, ii) Vegeta vs Jiren were made by the same animator. So don’t expect similar animation again.

  • Basil Hawkins (The Mage)

    Lmao

  • KDG

    I mean in a sense of defending the weak. Jiren doesn’t truly care about that. He only cares about becoming more powerful, and more recently reviving the person/people he lost. He even berated Toppo for losing to someone stronger than him. Lol

  • KDG

    To be fair, Sasuke has more significant victories against dangerous foes than Vegeta does.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Yeah because the author actually likes the character.

  • Pimpin Curly

    Not sure how one can’t like Vegeta. He has the most development in the entire show along with Piccolo.

  • anonymous

    He does care about defending the weak, although the sub was a bit confusing, he was saying something along “the strongest forgives….”, I thought he did bother about justice but he thinks you cannot depend on anyone but just yourself to ensure justice prevails and that is why you have to be the strongest.

  • Anthony1324576890

    Frieza is definitely going to win this. Goku and Jiren will knock each other out and Frieza will be left standing.

    *I hope!*

  • Pimpin Curly

    Eh. I wanted Ultra instinct to be one of those techniques that Goku managed to use once and revisits later on in another arc. Then use Gogeta instead to finish off the Tournament. Oh well. Guess we gotta see Goku pull one out of his ass again. I’m actually surprised Vegeta got SSB Ascended power up. Toriyama usually just gives Vegeta the bare bones to stay relevant.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    What if the new movie for super is going to be about Freiza, again

  • KDG

    It all mostly sounded to me like he joined the Pride Troopers for the sole purpose of becoming stronger by fighting villains. Deep down he doesn’t give a crap about anyone because the people he did care about and depended on were not strong enough to survive the battle against whoever killed his parents. As such, he trusts no one and only believes in his own strength, which is the only thing that hasn’t yet let him down. That’s basically what I took from the episode.

  • KDG

    Except Toriyama is no longer the author. He writes outlines for the arcs, and it’s up to Toyotaro (in the case of the manga) and Toei Animation (in the case of the anime) to fill in everything else, hence why the anime and manga are so clearly different from each other. Also possibly why Vegeta has had a significantly better role in Super than he had in Z.

  • AKDragonPC

    Although some people may think the differences my be small, I much prefer the manga storyline to the anime. Imo it’s these differences that make DBS anime lack tension/build-up in comparison to DBZ.

    The anime has wacky power scaling and inconsistent animation with little standards. The successor to DBZ deserved better, in this regard I consider the manga the proper continuation of DBZ.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Eh so so. Vegeta has killed far more people than Goku has and Vegeta has knocked down plenty of people in this tournament. The only person Goku really defeated was Nappa, Recoome, Burter, Freeza and Fat Buu. Goku technically beat Jeice and Ginyu but things went south leading Vegeta to beating both of them, Goku gave up against Cell, and Kid Buu took the effort of everyone. No one beat Beerus, Goku lost to Freeza, Vegeta beat a weakened Freeza but Freeza surprised attacked, Vegeta beat everyone but Hit and Botamo in the ToP and Vegeta was the one to take down Goku Black.

    For Sasuke who’d he have Deidara and Orochimaru? Itachi died of illness, and Orochimaru wasn’t at fullpower either.

  • Strider Xanthos

    I’m fine with Kale and Caulifia, though I understand why some people hate them. Personally, I’d love to see a Universe 6 spinoff.

  • Pimpin Curly

    The manga does have more logically sound story but It’s not worth remaking when that money can go toward new movies and series. Plus Toei never outsources other Studios to do their shows. So the possibility is next to nothing. The Super anime honestly isn’t bad. Just was hurt early on from weak art and animation direction during the first two arcs. Plus the really weird filler.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Goku defeated Frieza the first time. Kid Buu did take everyone however Goku put in the most work there, and Trunks was the one that beat Black, but he also took the combined effort of Goku and Vegeta so that’s also moot.

    If you want to talk about killing then yeah, Vegeta wins. But let’s not forget that Goku doesn’t fight to kill, he fights to better himself and that’s exactly what he does, he may now win all the time but he definitely puts in more work towards the enemy than anyone else.

    Minus a few major battles.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Even so, we can’t deny the fact that Sasuke is highly regarded in terms of plot.

    The complete antithesis of Vegeta 90% of the time.

  • Jiren Arizana

    Vegeta

  • KDG

    Sasuke defeated Orochimaru. Granted he was already weakened, but Sasuke was being opportunistic, as Orochimaru was a Sannin and a genius. Sasuke took down Deidara, gave Itachi a decent fight, killed Danzo, and his role was pivotal in defeating and sealing Kaguya. Vegeta has killed many minor enemies, but ultimately spent the majority of DBZ being a punching bag. Sasuke was a true rival to Naruto. Toriyama purposely dropped the ball on Goku’s and Vegeta’s rivalry for the sole purpose of humiliating a character he did not like, but created.

  • KDG

    Fair enough.

  • KDG

    Vegeta has more depth than anyone else in the entire series.

  • DivineKingdom

    I don’t think it was that he lost to Vegeta. If you remember what Jiren said to Vegeta in his praise, his issue with Toppo is that he sacrificed his ideals (justice) in order to get stronger and still lost, while Vegeta said he wouldn’t sacrifice his ideals (wanting to protect his family, his promise to Cabba) and won

  • AKDragonPC

    Yes it’s unlikely that DBS would outsource to another studio, just my opinion, as Toei’s standards have dropped since DBZ.
    Thing is imo DBS anime is really bad, and its more than just sloppy animation. DBS like GT feels foreign to DBZ its like the people in charge of creating the anime are not fans of DBZ and clearly Toei wanted to spend as little money as possible.

    Just because it’s got dragon ball in the title does not make it good; remember DBGT. A remake is unlikely but not impossible (FMA brotherhood).

  • Sinedd

    Just admit it, nobody can’t defeat Jiren, today’s episode proved it! He is the true God of Destruction! Jiren is the only one who will the Tournament (kidding, that’s what I want, we all know Goku will win), I hope NO. 17 is gone for good and we will not see him in the next episodes. The most unpredictable move in today’s episode was Frieza entrance, where did guy come from and why he isn’t eliminated yet, I hope will be eliminated in the next episode with Vegeta. Speaking of Vegeta, I didn’t expect him to be knocked out of the tournament, I thought he will face Jiren alongside Goku and defeat him, but it appears The Saiyan Prince will fall and not reach Master Ultra Instinct with Jiren. Guess the battle between Kakarrot and Jiren will be the best in Dragon Ball Super and I predict when Team 17 will win the Tournament, everyone will be resurrected with the Dragon Balls and how long this hiatus will last we all ask ourselves.

  • Flavio Leon

    With depth you mean the same old objective an obssesed training life to surpass Kakarot? Oh also, his developments, most of them, happened because of Goku throughout the story. More depth? For simple views, sure. Goku has a lot of the development,it just depends on the situation, he turns complex thoughts and situations into easier ones, he can be so badass and forgive others with tons of compassion,etc, but ofc some ppl just want to see him as a fool who likes to joke around and fight, just like superman or obi wan in their own way. Those characters has more depth and merit to be like they are, even with their losts and tough life since ever, way more than some ppl think and clap the same old formula of someone “bad” turning enough good.

  • Sabrescene

    Are you watching a different show Flavio? Vegeta started out as a completely 2D villain, wanting nothing more than power and immortality. mid-late DBZ, he had some form of family but all he really still cared about was getting stronger than Goku. At this point (the end of DBS), he has a family that he cares more about than anything (he wanted to see Bulla get born rather than going to the ToP), he has a pupil he wants to spend time training.

    How can you honestly say he hasn’t had much development as a character? Compare that to Goku, at the start of DB (we’re going right back) he wanted to get stronger, alone in the mountains. at this point, he wants to get stronger at a tournament… Apart from his location and number of friends, the dude hasn’t changed in like 30 years.

  • Pimpin Curly

    Take the nostalgia goggles off. DBZ anime had just as much filler as DBS if not more. It also did have it’s share of weird art and whacky animation. Why else would Toei do kai and actually redraw certain scenes and reanimate them? Lastly the art and animation have been pretty damn consistent in this last arc and saying otherwise is just being bias. It doesn’t make sense for you to compare brother hood to DBS in terms of remake. FMA got one because it was a manga adaption. DBS is based on nothing but the barebones framework Toriyama gave for Super.

  • blub

    No goku action next episode, it seems that he is resting and building up his momentum to release all the pent up “nakama power”

  • Elliott Blair

    Jiren should win and wish everyone back teaching the gods and zeno a lesson. Jiren isn’t a villain so it would just be shocking if he won and asked that something like this never takes place again. I’m just interested in Goku not winning. Learning UI is enough of a victory for him.

  • AKDragonPC

    As I said the animation is only one of the issues with Super. I didn’t mention filler but DBZ filler —> DBS filler any day. The “redrawn” scenes from Kai look worse/out of place and is no better than the original as they just traced those few frames they aren’t “improved” apart from modern colours and effects.
    Sure the animation has gotten better but if you think DBS animation is consistent then I really have nothing more to say in regard to this.
    Finally “DBS is based on nothing but the barebones framework Toriyama gave for Super” which is exactly why I feel DBS should be redone to follow the manga which imo is superior to a “barebones framework”, also if it was seasonal release then it could be filler free; quality over quantity.

  • DBZ Supersonic

    Has anyone ever thought that the time might end at the last moment of victory….
    A Draw could be comfirmed then extra time hehehe…which could get even more exciting until Goku’s victory

    you will also see at the outro Jiren has a down & dissapointed look on his face when the universe 11 group is shown…that alone should tell you Jiren has been wrong about his reasons of obtaining strength ….he also insults Toppo in 126 and cursed Belmon God of Destruction
    in 127 when Android 17 asked him about his wish as they were just useless.

    Sad but true Jiren looses

  • Pimpin Curly

    I only said it’s been pretty consistent in the Tournament of power. Not the overall series. Toyotaros manga version has less holes because he’s always consulting Toriyama and knows his facts. I also never said the redrawn stuff in kai was good either. My point was they found certain scenes so bad they felt the need to redraw.

  • Ahtma

    The manga is a slog to read because Toyotaro got the job doing it because his style is a Toriyama-lite, not by his own merits. Anatomical inconsistencies (he’s really bad with necks), Trunks’ awful sword, and overall really poor storytelling mar my enjoyment of the manga. He info dumps way too fast and hard. Dragon Ball was successful because Toriyama’s art and presentation distracted you from the fact that the story is trash, it’s a lot more apparent in the Super manga because Toyotaro’s art is nowhere near as strong.

    It’s also inexcusable for the weird quality for his art because it’s a monthly series. When I think monthly series, I think part 6+ of JoJo, Berserk, stuff with really exceptional artwork – while Toyotaro can’t take a whole month to come close to anything Toriyama could do in a week. There was a very brief period in the manga when it was Goku Black vs Trunks where Toyotaro actually seemed like he was improving, but what gains he showed there he lost just as quickly.

  • Ahtma

    My guy, I don’t know how in the same comment you can say that Vegeta hasn’t developed while saying that Goku has “a lot” of development. There is no difference in Goku’s character from the beginning of Dragon Ball until now, meanwhile Vegeta is almost the diametric opposite of how he used to be.

  • topher

    You’re dumb

  • Ahtma

    Seasonal Dragon Ball will never happen.

  • Dickel Pineda

    frieza is still up there.. i was surprise when he showed up on the last episode.. and he will show up again for sure.. he didn’t get knock out of the arena just yet

  • ABCXYZ123

    Right, nobody can not defeat him, and that’s Goku. No, he is not GoD see what I did there. Either Goku will kick his A$$, or stall the rest of the two minutes to win with 2 vs 1.

  • ABCXYZ123

    Or Goku will stall Jiren so that Universe 7 wins with Freeza, and Goku with only Jiren there, but that may be anticlimactic.

  • BatmanDaGAWD

    WHAT. THE. F*CK? Why in the f*ck would they knock Vegeta off?? It doesn’t make sense, they could win if they just fused! But no instead, Dragon Ball is going to do the SAME SH!T they always get criticism for, and the reason people get pissed is that the same thing happens EVERYTIME! All of a sudden Goku pulls some new strength/power OUT OF HIS A S S AND SAVES THE DAY? You mean to tell me he “mastered” Ultra Instinct, a skill GODS struggle to even ACHIEVE… and he MASTERED it??? IN 20 MINUTES???? See this is that bulls**t that fans always complain about, and the same stereotypes that are said about the series man!

  • BatmanDaGAWD

    that would make more since than Goku mastering Ultra Instinct in 20 f*cking minutes and pulling a bunch of new power out his a s s.

  • hankosanko

    17 should of been knock out of the ring ages ago or even the moment he challenges toppo or jiren, i cant believe they made him as strong as ssj blue by the look of things. making goku and vegeta a joke

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    17 became that strong after fighting humans poachers lmaoo

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Frieza’s gnna kill jiren episode 130

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Joren back story making him that strong is bullshit, vegeta trunks and alooot more characters have been through worse and they not that strong

  • Rodrigo Monterier

    G A R B A G E

  • Flavio Leon

    Maybe you just prefer to remember those family thoughts that we saw on last episodes instead of remember how Goku named his family when Ribrianne asked him about his potential desire, Vegeta still spends a lot of time on that goal come on, that’s the way he surpassed Goku until some point of the tournament. Goku got a job and was searching, Goku had some genius ideas on DBZ saga to beat stronger enemies, Goku sacrifice for others too, the reason he didn’t have a change in his personality or character doesn’t mean he didn’t evolve his ideas especially in though situations, you can’t skip the fact that Vegeta is still so obsessed on becoming stronger most if the time, actually it works kinda similar on him like in Goku, normal classic personality remains but they show something more when the things get serious, but even his faith in love and his changes in DBZ, in all DBZ arcs, has to be with some things he realized about Goku and how remarkable he is, that’s the reason the changes is Goku are harder to find but they’re still there if look good imo, he was so good designed since ever as a character, he’s like a superman-Jesus in his own way, a cooler version, you know how virtuous you need to be to keep being such a good guy even when you had a hard life, you saw your friends die in front your eyes, you spent your life saving the world even sharing that goal with becoming stronger, and not be interested in nothing bad, weird, nothing that comes from a corrupted or more experienced mind, something that’s is actually normal in real world and somehow is hard to skip at least in 1 interest,even being that powerful, Goku had development throughout it, show how it is possible to keep being that apparently simple guy with a simple life and simple but so important values. Ofc he still needs to work on part of that inoccence in some things,especially since DBS meant a setback for him in that aspect. Btw we can talk half interest in both characters cause as I said, Vegeta cares about U6 apprentice but he has his own goal about the Saiyan king of U6.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    I’ll make this simple: Goku is the MAIN character, meaning he will without fail, get the spotlight for such an important battle.

  • AKDragonPC

    Indeed, DBS anime power scaling is wacky. When goku fights 17 in the anime he has to go SSB….in the manga he only goes SSJ3, its small things like this that make the anime suck.

  • AKDragonPC

    Yeah I can agree to an extent. The manga is not perfect by any means, it is a bit too fast paced but would take that pace over putting up with the god awful filler in the anime. However I didn’t like the manga totally omitting Gohan’s re-training with Piccolo.
    Also while the DBS manga may not be the best art when compared to a manga like Berserk for the timeframe its still much better and far more consistent than the anime, especially in terms of body proportions and details.
    Still for arguably the most popular anime of all time, more thought/money/time/effort/care should have been put into the creation of DBS anime.

  • AKDragonPC

    You kind of made my point, 1 saga out of 5 sagas you considered being consistent in animation quality overall makes the anime’s animation inconsistent. Also you actually did say: “Why else would Toei do kai and actually redraw certain scenes and reanimate them?”
    My point was if you compare the original scenes from DBZ to the Kai traced scenes you will see the only difference is modern colours, the art itself is no better in terms of proportions, accuracy or detail; which is why imo they look worse and so out of place. Matter of fact some of the broadcasted “redrawn” scenes were removed from the Blu-Ray release of Kai and replaced with originals.

  • Garrett Rios

    Umm. Sayan saga picallo and Gohan.. Cell saga Gohan.. Buu saga spirit bomb… battle of the gods saga lost.. Goku Black saga Trunks. Really the only big times hes gotten a new power up at the end to pull out a win is with Frieza. If you want to nit pick, you can say the ssgss kk x20 against hit.

    Im not saying he doesn’t always get new power ups with just about every saga. But this will be the first saga since his first time going super sayan for a major last second win and “saves the day”

    Of course he’s going to always show up in a major fight and make something happen, but he is the main character so it is obvious he alwa

  • Yomi

    Damn; my dudes complaining hard-core down there.

  • Edward Watkins

    i enjoy the manga version but sometimes the manga just does really weird things that kind of make it a “pick your poison” type of deal between it and the anime. for example, the anime saw trunks gain his super saiyan rage mode that allowed him to hold his own against black and was able to perform the mafuba via tutorial vid while the manga has goku attempt to hakai fused zamasu after seeing beerus use it once and hes not even a candidate like toppo. i tend to think the latter is far more world breaking but the better story telling the manga provides makes it not look so bad. then there was the SSB power threshold thing that they had to plot explain away in the goku black arc (i like how they did it but they shouldnt have had to in the first place) because it made it feel like a worse transformation than SS3. the tournament of power arc seems to be turning out nicely though in the manga so im excited to see what it does differently.

  • Favian Maltez Garcia

    and also vegeta could’t have beet toppo becuase thats the first time he has experience the godly power so he is not full power like he has supossed to be.

  • Favian Maltez Garcia

    he is not strong as a ssgss goku just used part of the blue power but 17 it is stronger than ssj3 and its stupid because in dbz he was not even stronger than a 2nd form cell.

  • Favian Maltez Garcia

    they cannot fused because if the enemy is not fused they wouln’t do its their pride just they did it in evil buu last form if jiren is fused they will just like zamasu ad super buu [Gohan Absorbed].

  • Jose H Hernandez

    True favian

  • AKDragonPC

    I gotta say I found Trunks “rage mode” and managing to create a spirit bomb while in rage mode out of nowhere quite cringeworthy, personally I can accept Goku attempting the hakai move over this. Yeah I agree with the SSB threshold thing but I feel it also gives a bit more depth to the SSB form.
    I am also very much looking forward to this arc in the manga.

  • Ryumancer

    And constantly forcing the SSJG form like when Goku fought Hit instead of the epic SSJBKK x10 is why the manga sucks.

  • Youngjun Oh

    To be fair, young goku did waste alot of time other than training cuz original dragonball was comedy lol

  • AKDragonPC

    Lol, and the anime forces SSB like every few seconds, at least in the manga there is some variety of SSG and SSB which is also why the power scaling makes sense in the manga. Some may consider SSBKK epic, I find it cheap; the manga is still superior overall without it imo.

  • Pimpin Curly

    Yeah. Super as a whole is real inconsistent animation and art wise. Could even say all over the place. When Toei has members of the old staff from Z on. That’s when it was most consistent and enjoyable. Now why they didn’t have them on for every episode your guess is good as mine. We could debate all day but one thing is certain and that’s toei hasn’t cared about any of their shows since the late 90s. Another thing Toei sucks with now is the music. Recycling the same 3 tracks over and over. Unlike Z, hokuto no ken and saint seiya that had spectacular music.

  • AKDragonPC

    True, Toei sucks.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    I know it’s like mad late but that kingdom Hearts trailer gave me such joy and pain. My longest relationship is with kingdom Hearts, and it keeps leaving me with more questions than answers

  • KDG

    1. No, it is not the first time Toppo experienced godly power. Toppo had been training with Belmod and Marcarita for quite some time, as he was a God of Destruction candidate. He knew exactly how to control his powers, and how to fully utilize his Destruction power, even being capable of holding back said power when necessary. This is proof that he has used them before, most likely during his training.

    2. There is no “full power.” Each God of Destruction has their own level of power, some weaker than others. There is no set power threshold for Destroyers. Toppo was in fact at his full power. It just so happens that his full power wasn’t strong enough to defeat Vegeta. So your statement that Vegeta could not have beaten Toppo has absolutely no basis in fact.

  • KDG

    Actually it’s not stupid. Android 17 was weaker than Imperfect Cell 12 years prior. He’s an Android who has no need for sleep, and has unlimited energy and stamina. He could have literally trained for 12 years straight without a break and easily surpassed Goku and Vegeta.

  • KDG

    Clearly you don’t know much about depth if you think that’s all there is to Vegeta, and that Goku of all people has more depth. Goku is basically a simple-minded Saiyan whose only interests are training and fighting. He abandons his family with the lack of concern one can expect from someone who only cares about two things; neither of which being family obviously. Goku doesn’t have compassion, so much as he simply feels everyone is redeemable. This is mostly due to his gentle nature, and it tends to put the people he supposedly cares about in jeopardy. So he doesn’t turn situations into easier ones at all, and often allows his personality to make things worse.

    As for Vegeta, his depth does not lie in what you mistakenly characterized as “the same old objective.” That same old objective of which you speak has a lot to do with his history. Vegeta was a prince of an entire planet; the next in line to the throne of ruling over an entire species. He instead ended up spending the MAJORITY of his life as a slave to the same tyrant who killed his father and nearly rendered his species extinct. The one thing that Vegeta had going that kept him feeling superior and somewhat content with himself was the fact that he was still the strongest of the remaining Saiyans if nothing else. Then he was “bested” by someone whom he considered to be inferior to himself – a gentle low class Saiyan. Most of Vegeta’s negative personality stems from spending three decades of his life in slavery. His relentless training stems from feeling powerless for most of his life working for Frieza.

    As for development, Vegeta went from a ruthless Saiyan who cared about no one, to fighting to protect the Earth on several occasions, albeit reluctantly in the beginning. He went from watching his newborn son and his son’s mother being nearly killed by Dr. Gero and not lifting a finger to help, to being so devoted to his wife and children that he wouldn’t even leave their sides to participate in a minor exhibition match alongside Goku. Vegeta went from being almost entirely unwilling to swallow his own pride even to save his own life, to dancing like a fool to prevent Beerus from destroying the Earth where his wife and son reside. That is development. Goku, on the other hand, has literally been the same person from the beginning of Dragon Ball Z until the very end. He allowed his 5 year old son to travel to Namek alongside his weak bald friend while he recovered in a hospital bed. He allowed that same son to be beaten to a pulp by Cell in hopes that Gohan’s hidden power would be provoked, which could have ended catastrophically. Goku allowed himself to remain dead for seven whole years despite having a son on the way and a family that loved him. Over a decade later, Goku was given the opportunity to lose a fight to Bergamo the Crusher during the exhibition match in order for Zeno to still hold the Tournament of Power but repeal the decision of erasing the universes that lost; Goku immediately objected the idea of throwing the fight, and was more than willing to allow trillions of lives to be expunged in a tournament all because his pride and love for battle would not allow him to take his fight against Bergamo seriously. His lust for battle has not changed through the duration of the anime’s run, and you claim Goku has a lot of development? Goku has merit to be like? The absentee father who values fighting over his entire family, has never kissed his own wife, only agreed to marry her because he thought marriage was a food, and was more than willing to allow seven entire universes full of living people to be erased in a tournament without a second thought because losing that one fight was the alternative; this is the man with character development and merit to be like? Insanity…

  • KDG

    First off, Vegeta wanting to become stronger is a trait that nearly ALL Saiyans share; it no longer has anything to do with surpassing Goku. He even gave up on learning Ultra Instinct, and opted to gain power in his own way. Vegeta went from killing Nappa for being defeated by Goku, to pushing himself even harder in the Tournament of Power so that he could wish back Universe 6, solely to keep his promise to Cabba whom he wants to continue to mentor. In Z, despite his anger toward Goku for keeping Super Saiyan 3 hidden from him, he swallowed his pride and fused with Goku not because he wanted to live and defeat Majin Buu, but because he wanted to rescue his son. Yes, the same son whom he allowed Dr. Gero to nearly kill because he didn’t care. Vegeta has become the type of man who would sacrifice anything, including his own life and personal desires for the sake of his family. Goku just willingly sacrificed six (soon to be seven) entire universes for the sake of fighting strong warriors.

    Also, don’t let the English dub of Dragon Ball Z fool you. Goku is not some virtuous Jesus-like character. He actually doesn’t really care all that much about being a good person, but rather he enjoys good battles. It just so happens that most of those good battles are against evil people. Goku abandons his family and friends on a near constant basis. He does so without any hesitation. Goku spends his life saving the world, but he’s at fault for most of the peril his world faces. He even allowed Majin Buu to be hatched all so he could give Vegeta the selfish grudge match he wanted while Vegeta was under the influence of Babidi who heightened all of his more ill intentions.

    For the record, I don’t think you know exactly what character development is. Being a good guy does not make one’s character “developed”. No matter how good of a person Goku is, the fact that his personality and actions have not changed one bit since the beginning of Dragon Ball shows that Goku’s character had not developed. He is still the same person. There has been no growth, his character has no depth; he simply repeats the same formula repeatedly: abandon family and friends to train, show up at the last minute for almost every battle, defeat villain, rinse and repeat. He has not learned from any of his mistakes, and simply does not change for better or worse. Goku is Goku, always has been and always will be. Vegeta’s entire character has changed. All that remains of the past Vegeta is his Saiyan pride, and his grumpy personality – something that cannot ever escape him as he spent his entire childhood until his 30s in slavery. It doesn’t matter how much you like Goku; claiming he has had any bit of character development just because you like his personality is entirely erroneous.

  • KDG

    Everything isn’t up to Toriyama. He rights story outlines for the anime and manga; Toyotaro and Toei Animation fills in the blanks.

  • Emman M

    Android 17 is an intelligent fighter. He intended to keep on running to survive as you can see in the previous episodes. He planned to keep running until the time runs out but it didn’t happen.

  • Jesse

    Android 17 the real MVP.

  • Madara

    Goku vs Jiren, is a tie. the time will end and Universe 7 will win because Frieza still somewhere in the arena fainting!

  • Ryumancer

    Manga’s powerscaling superiority is minimal and hardly noticeable. SSBKK isn’t cheap, it was explained just fine. It’s all about ki control with a calming focus, and Goku always had Kaioken. Saying it was an asspull is beyond retarded.

    The only thing the manga did decidedly better was Goku’s meeting with 17. And that was quite recent. Everything else is always debatable. And considering the manga takes 4 times as long to produce, at most, a similar result to the weekly anime in terms of interest, it falls very flat. The manga served better as a supplementary tool, explaining things the anime missed, like explaining why and how the Pilaf Gang became kids again in the future timeline or doing a slight bit more backstory for certain characters. Doing a constant 180 every 5 pages from the anime only further fragments and annoys the fanbase.

    Not to mention the manga has almost no character development whatsoever. The anime beats the absolute crap out of the manga in that regard, especially when it comes to Vegeta and Android 18.

  • anonymous

    I disagree, 17 never tires out and has infinite energy meaning there is absolutely zero strain on his body. I don’t see how training even helps the androids to increase their power. Second, despite years of training, Goku and Vegeta are strong due to transformations. Their base forms aren’t still as strong. So no, 17 should not be as strong as an SSB.

  • Ryumancer

    Meh…I still have a hard time accepting that. When you’re at the level of the gods or near it, it’s mainly not how “much” you train but what type of training and how severe said training is.

    Without the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, I don’t see anything on Earth offering 17 that dramatic of an increase in power, even without rest.

    Not to mention there would be some times he’d need to stop, to get married, to adopt their children, his job (he gets to train in solitude but not that severe of training).

    But that’s my take on it anyway. :/

  • Jack

    Yamcha killed Jiren’s parents with the Wolf Fang Fist.

  • KDG

    Strain on the body is not synonymous with energy. Having infinite energy would not stop the straining of one’s muscles that is caused by resistance – for example, lifting weights; not tiring out does not mean one’s muscles aren’t feeling the strain of lifting heavy weights. Not tiring out simply means he has the energy to keep going. It has no bearing on whether or not training would put strain on the body and make 17 stronger.

  • KDG

    To be fair, Frieza died significantly weaker than 17, and within four months achieved God levels of power. 17 has had 12 years to achieve the power he now has. As far-fetched as it is that he would achieve that level of power in secret while training on Earth, I think Super has far passed our thresholds for what is or isn’t hard to accept.

  • anonymous

    He is a cyborg though, strain on a machine can only degrade it. But even assuming he can get stronger, we know that he isn’t even as strong as Goku ssj3 by the end of Buu saga, which is already 7 years later. So he technically only has 5 more years, during which he also has a job. Compare that with Goku who has the benefit of a Saiyan boost, + transformations + 7 years of training in the other world as a dead guy and still he was so weak compared to the powers we see in DBS. 17 getting as strong as an SSB is ridiculous no matter how I see it.

  • anonymous

    Goku clearly beat golden Frieza, which is why Sorbet shot Goku.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Just butting in but the real question is why didn’t he use th8s form sooner, like his fight against Cell, Kid Buu, Beerus. Not defending the anime or manga, I don’t pay to much attention to either of them. But it is strange how he suddenly remembered *oh I have Kaioken let me add that with my blue* not like he couldn’t have done it years ago

  • anonymous

    It was explained in Saiyan Saga that to use kaioken one must have perfect ki control. Only the god forms (SSG probably and) SSB have perfect ki control (in addition to the base form), so using Kaioken was possible again. There was one instance in Z where Goku uses SSJ + Kaioken but that’s part of a filler so it isn’t canon.

  • Ryumancer

    Because the normal Super Saiyan forms drain stamina faster, put more strain on the body, and fill the user’s heart with rage.

    Kaioken with the normal Super Saiyan forms would’ve killed him. Old Kai said this when Goku used SSBKK against Hit. And Goku’s “Super Kaioken” that he used against Pikkon was just filler.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Sounds like bs to me seeing that Goku can still use it in blue form without dying

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Read below

  • Ryumancer

    Difference is Frieza never trained a day in his life until that point. His power skyrocketed when he actually put forth effort. He was a mutant prodigy.

    Though that last sentence after the comma I can agree with you on.

  • anonymous

    as I mentioned, blue form has perfect ki control, that’s why he doesn’t die. I didn’t understand what your contradiction is.

  • Pimpin Curly

    Yea but Toriyama still is involved with all new transformations. Does Ultra instinct or ascended SS blue vegeta really look like something Toei would design? Not at all. Those forms have Toriyama written all over it.

  • Ryumancer

    I didn’t see HIS reply and you asked ME, so…

    lol

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Wasn’t it stated he shouldn’t be using it as much because it was reckless

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Technically yes, but Goku lost due to Sorbet. He got a second shot at him.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Yup I pointed that out. True but Goku didn’t technically beat him by himself. Vegeta actually beat the snot out of Black when he got back from training again.

    He used to lol, but yeah true. Though I’m talking beating in general Vegeta has beaten far more people than Goku has had a crack at.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    I know, never said that was a bad idea it’s clever, just that he didn’t fight Oro or Itachi at their best .Forgot about Danzo.

    He’s gotten beat up by a few people but sometimes gets revenge (Zarbon, then if you want to be technical Recoome and Burter), Goku has also suffered his share of defeats. yes secondary characters usually take care of the lesser enemies and the main character usually beats the big bad. That was my point, you mention Kaguya you could say that with Fused Zamasu as well. That Vegeta played a big part, as well as with Jiren, hey he beat Toppo so XD that’s something.

    Vegeta still is a rival to Goku he manages to keep up and has surpassed him a few times. Sure Goku is going to pull ahead again with Ultra Instinct but we don’t know if Goku will truly beat Jiren or manage to shove him off the edge or some other factor. It’s implied at the end of the DBZ manga that he and Goku are equal or at least close. Sasuke was a so-so rival (I mean he was a great rival but he’s kinda odd at some parts), a rival at first but kinda slipped down to villain then is back at rival again. Vegeta is still Goku’s main rival. Goku even admitted Vegeta would’ve beaten Hit if Goku would’ve fought Hit first. Sure Goku gets ahead for a bit but Vegeta manages to catch up.
    I’ve never actually heard that from him at all, just heard people saying it. So I don’t know on that point.

  • anonymous

    Oh, maybe he mastered it. The way he is abusing that form suggests that he must have trained his body to bear the kaioken.

  • Navok76

    Vegeta isn’t that strong??

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Compared to jiren nope

  • Navok76

    Goku without UI isn’t that strong too compared to jiren

  • anonymous

    lol the comparison is between vegeta and Jiren’s backstory and their strength. Why are you bringing Goku into this?

  • Navok76

    I am just saying that his comparison is nonsense.

  • Exkirion

    Nope, I expected the victory of a “team deathmatch” to be decided by the team, not by the deadbeat “You go, I hold him back” and then the main character wins one vs one cliché.
    It was the big chance for super to not be the Goku show, but it failed itself once again.

  • AKDragonPC

    The wacky power scaling in the anime while you* consider it to be minimal has a big impact to all characters perceived strength which in the anime so far is retarded and confusing. As I said “some may consider SSBKK epic” I don’t, nothing retarded about my opinion.

    Almost totally disagree with your 2nd paragraph, yes it takes longer and the differences in story can be minimal at times but I still consider the art and fight choreography to be superior and the differences make the manga more authentic to DBZ, the DBS anime feels like a more like a filler filled spin-off to me.
    Also: “The manga served better as a supplementary tool, explaining things the anime missed” its the other way around the anime supplements at times, some things that the manga did not feel necessary to include.

    I do totally agree the character development in the anime is far better, but I would take better/consistent art, fight choreography and power scaling that actually makes sense over this any day, the anime almost excludes these core principles and dilutes what made DBZ so great.

  • jav253

    Yeah 17 being so strong in this tourny makes little real sense. Lot’s of characters like Roshi got a MASSIVE power boost so they could participate in this tournament. But 17’s takes the cake because he somehow got SSB power off screen. Were supposed to believe that if someone had thought to call him up he could have handled Golden Frieza during resurrection F. This despite the fact all the other none Saiyans seem to be hopelessly obsolete since they can’t get new transformations. 17 just doesn’t need any apparently to be god level.

  • jav253

    Yep it’s really looking like they plan to have him hide, and win the tournament. I mean he isn’t doing anything useful other than distracting Jiren the few moments it takes for Jiren to beat him to a pulp. But he is still on the stage so they must be planning on have him win. OR alternatively they actually follow up on that bit about Jiren being vulnerable if he drops his guard, and have Frieza kill him with a sneak attack. Thing is it was established Jiren never drops his guard since he caught Hit’s sneak attack earlier in the tourny. But the writing is full of plot holes like that so whatever.

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Ah I see

  • Ryumancer

    The fact that you have an opinion isn’t retarded, calling it cheap and therefore an asspull is. Trunks’ Super Saiyan Rage and Spirit Sword are asspulls. Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken is NOT one.

    Still images don’t make a choreography. They don’t capture every bit of movement. Any anime beats any manga by default in that regard as all manga is is still images. The manga does have far more consistent art, but it’s a superficial and shallow thing to have that as your number one (or almost your number one reason) for saying it’s better than the anime. Not even Z had consistent art/animation.

    >”its the other way around the anime supplements at times, some things that the manga did not feel necessary to include.”

    For the ORIGINAL manga and anime that is true. For Super, the ANIME came first and the manga came later as an adaptation. -_-

    The art is overshadowed by the ridiculous changes in story aspects and distinct lack of character development. Toyotaro’s weakness in art seems to somewhat be necks.

    Another thing the anime has over the manga, color. The pacing of the manga is superior (albeit barely like the powerscaling), but people get tired of looking at black and white all the time. And character development helps connect the audience to the characters. Without development, there’s far less reason to root for a certain character to beat their opponent.

  • AKDragonPC

    Nah sorry just don’t agree with most of that. At its core DBS is a fighting anime, the animation quality is paramount to depict the emotions, force, energy and impact ect. There just seems to be no baseline standard with the animation quality, we just get what we are given, not forgetting the only reason the animation and shading has changed/improved in the latest arc was due to all the complaints.

    We aren’t going to agree, bottom line I just prefer the manga story and art over the anime. However in almost every other case of anime vs manga I agree with you in that the anime will obviously be better but for me and DBS this is not the case.

    Out of curiosity what do you think of animes such Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/FMA Brotherhood in terms of animation compared to DBS?

  • Ryumancer

    Not like I’m saying the first two arcs were any good. Though giving Goku that universal feat with Beerus was awesome. Really annoying when GTards STILL think SSJ4 is stronger than SSJG or SSJB.

    Whatever.

    Naruto, Bleach and FMAB all seem to be superior in terms of animation, though the former two have shitty pacing and character development respectively. Bleach introduces 10 new characters every damn episode (figuratively speaking of course…kinda). One Piece keeps dipping below DBS every so often. And I HATE Oda’s art style in general. Funny how Toei’s two heaviest hitters have the shittiest animation nowadays. But Toriyama’s art style slams Oda’s into the ground.

  • anonymous

    You said Vegeta beat a weakened Frieza but Frieza surprise attacked, it still means Vegeta lost xD. Frieza needed Sorbet to attack Goku but Frieza alone was good enough to kill Vegeta. So the victory here should go to Goku not Vegeta. Vegeta wasn’t the one to take out Goku Black. In fact, Goku black was not defeated. They had to fuse because Zamasu was afraid of the Mafuba. The only dangerous foe Vegeta beat in Super is Toppo.

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    I never said goku is strong

  • Silent Rain

    I think this is the perfect time to make Gogeta canon

  • KDG

    All we know about 17 is that he and his twin sister were kidnapped by Gero, who then turned them into cyborgs. What we don’t know is why they were chosen. Somehow Gero managed to make these two twins stronger than Frieza without making them train. 17 has had at least 12 years behind the scenes to bulk up. God level might be a stretch, but it’s still 12 years compared to a weaker individual who reached it in 4 months.

  • jav253

    Yep someone better not tell Vegeta how good that training is or there wont be any poachers left.

  • Seventh

    Jiren trained for longer, he literally dedicated his entire life to training. His entire reason to live was to gain strength.

  • Ryumancer

    I’d be more inclined to believe that you’d find a better training environment in space somewhere on a strange planet as opposed to a remote, normal island on Earth.

    They should’ve made an arc to where to get strong enough, they’d have to train on a planet that orbits the event horizon of a black hole. THAT would’ve been freaking epic!

  • Anthony_weaver86

    Oh boy okay look it’s not happening

  • Jōichirō Yukihira

    Yeah. Goku and Vegeta fuse, then they split apart because the fusion is so strong…

  • Jōichirō Yukihira

    Lmao. Exactly like Vegeta and Goku. He’s not special, he’s just powerful because the story demands a powerful fighter that’s above SSB and Golden Frieza

  • Jōichirō Yukihira

    In this anime, when you’re vastly stronger than a fighter, you can’t outspeed them, you can’t hurt them and no technique works that can trick them besides solar flare. I remember a time when strong fighters don’t even bother moving out the way of attacks because it does 0 damage or knockback.

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Vegeta has been training as a child and was waaay stronger than jiren was when they were children

    He has been through waaaay more, being a slave to frieza watching his father die by the same man, watching his whole planet get blown up by the same man

    His entire reason to love was to be the strongest sayain and to eventually be theone to kill frieza

  • s̶ᴡ̇ᴀ̦͑͂ɢ͠ᴀ̙ᴍ̧ᴏ̩̫͛ᴛ͓͔̫ᴏ͂

    next episode vegeta is out lol

  • s̶ᴡ̇ᴀ̦͑͂ɢ͠ᴀ̙ᴍ̧ᴏ̩̫͛ᴛ͓͔̫ᴏ͂

    Win

  • s̶ᴡ̇ᴀ̦͑͂ɢ͠ᴀ̙ᴍ̧ᴏ̩̫͛ᴛ͓͔̫ᴏ͂

    true lol

  • Goku Black

    FOCKING THANK YOU!

  • Favian Maltez Garcia

    no he has been training with the angela and he was practicing and he dint wanted to turn to a god because he was a hero but when you become a destroyer you are not bad or good. and he said in the episode that he made his decision.

  • Nero Angelo

    … kinda wrong News Topic 😉

  • Anthony_weaver86

    This site is boring and ppl barely say anything

  • BudokaiLimit

    no one cares u life sucks if u resort to commenting on a dead comunity that wasnt even meant to be a community

  • anonymous

    Vegeta didn’t see his father being killed by Frieza though. Until Dodoria told him in Z, he thought it was an asteroid that struck planet Vegeta.

  • The Real Tobi (Cana)

    Vegeta had all but won, Goku was knocked out by Sorbet. Vegeta was still alive and charging up the final kill, it still counts.

    Goku would’ve been killed just as easily if Freeza did the same to him, in fact he was on the sidelines and would’ve been killed as well.

    Lol, Vegeta did in fact beat Black, so did Trunks. Beat does not = kill, it means beating them in a fight. Goku Black was beat hence why he fused. Not really Vegeta has beat plenty of people in the Tournament as well as Ginyu who was stomping Gohan and co.

  • anonymous

    “Vegeta had all but won, Goku was knocked out by Sorbet. Vegeta was still alive and charging up the final kill, it still counts.”
    > Except….. Vegeta got killed (killed by Frieza) and Goku didn’t die. In fact Goku clearly beat Frieza which is why Sorbet stepped in. So Goku wins. If you use dumb logic like Sorbet knocked Goku out, I will use the same and say Goku killed Frieza with the surprise Kamehameha. So either way the victory goes to Goku.

    “Goku would’ve been killed just as easily if Freeza did the same to him”
    > What you are saying is entirely hypothetical and I can also argue that Goku can escape using instant transmission.

    “Goku Black was beat hence why he fused.”
    > I never said beat = kill. Why don’t you re-watch episode. Zamasu is the one who suggests they fuse and that was because of the Mafuba. Giving a few punches to the enemy doesn’t mean victory. Once Goku Black raised his power citing anger as a new-found source of strength, he was able to hold on his own against both Vegeta AND Goku.

    I am not talking about small fodder that Vegeta beat. He didn’t even need SSB to beat anyone of them. And before you say he turned Blue and beat Cabba, the manga confirms that Vegeta only wanted to show SSB to cabba and was perfectly capable of beating him as a regular SSJ.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Actually, Merged Zamasu was the perfect time to do it.

  • Edward

    Naruto has shitty character development? Lmao please put down the crack pipe.

  • Koibito888

    And then Frieza makes some crazy wish like he wants all the universes back and together so he can escape going back to hell and try to rule the whole super universe inadvertently bringing everyone back like Goku and Vegeta wanted – maybe inadvertently bringing back the 6 that were wiped, and we’re left open with that in perfect DBZ ending fashion

  • Koibito888

    That was entirely metaphorical. Becoming a God of Destruction is not a form you decide on it’s a job you train for. He had been training to be the next God of Destruction. The whole justice thing wasn’t some ‘give up justice to become a god’ shtick it was literally for this tournament he gave up winning justly in favor of survival and decided to use the power he already had. His decision was to not hold back, not to ‘become a god for the first time’ thats not how it works.

  • Koibito888

    Goku and Vegeta trained their entire lives and are now likely to be close to if not the level of Beerus himself. Jiren is a bit stronger than that. You’re acting like Jiren trained for a month and got billions of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta when in fact they can fight with Jiren by now. Jiren trained his whole life just like them and happened to end up stronger than them by a decent margin, it’s no big deal.

    And actually Trunks going through worse stuff pushed him up a crap ton too so yes. They all go through worse stuff and they all get powerful from it that’s all. Jiren could have higher potential, he could be older, more likely he has abilities special to him (like his eye thing if its not just an aesthetic choice) given that the Grand Priest flat out said both Goku and Jiren didn’t get to where they were by JUST training. There is entire backstory to Jiren now, the flashback just opened it up. He had to have had whole unique stories to him between the large gaps of time from him forming an entire team to growing up after the fact.

    Your point has no basis, you’re trying to poke holes in something with invalid logic.

  • Koibito888

    Are you kidding? They clearly establish the logic early on and it fits with DBZ. Potential is a thing. If you’re born strong you got high potential. Frieza being born as strong as he was always absolutely made sense that he could train for a short time and gain incredible power because he’s just barely tapping into what he can do instead of pushing against a limit. Frieza was born strong and so short training can skyrocket his power.

    17 was literally built stronger than Frieza, he is literally BETTER Frieza who has been training for years. At this point it actually wouldn’t make any sense if 17 COULDN’T get that strong. It doesn’t make Goku and Vegeta a joke it upholds the logic to what 17 is and shows correctly that he is a big deal.

  • Koibito888

    Actually there is no difference. The point to Frieza not training is that he was born strong. If your born strong your potential is proportionately larger. Frieza was born the strongest natural being (as in not built or magic in origin) in the universe and as such his potential is stupid high and any training at all would skyrocket that.

    17 was literally built, not trained, built stronger than Frieza. That is literally better Frieza. 17 could train for shorter and get stronger logically but even still it took him this many years to get to that point.

    It would make no sense if 17 couldn’t get that strong.

  • Koibito888

    Specifically they very slowly showed Goku getting better with Blue Kaioken. First time he used it it ruined him. The next few times he used it he very specifically ONLY went the initial x1 Kaioken and at first only like once and then slowly he got better at it so they visibly showed us he was training it not just suggested it so yes he did master it basically.

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Joren isnt stronger than beerus lol

  • anonymous

    I don’t see how that is different from anything I said above. I said he uses that form a lot now, which means he mastered it.

  • anonymous

    I don’t know if you could read my reply since it got spam filtered so I am rewriting it –
    Goku did beat Frieza, which is why Frieza resorts to plan B i.e. Sorbet’s attack. It’s BS if you say Vegeta beat Frieza since Golden Frieza lost all his power in his fight against Goku. Even so, Frieza was able to kill Vegeta. I don’t see how Vegeta gets the win here. You argued that Goku was knocked out by Sorbet, so I will say Goku finally killed Frieza, so Goku gets the win.

    “Goku would’ve been killed just as easily if Freeza did the same to him, in fact he was on the sidelines and would’ve been killed as well.” > If you want to talk hypothetically, I can argue that hypothetically Goku can escape using instant transmission. So the win again goes to Goku.

  • anonymous

    Now about Goku Black –
    I never said beat = kill. Yes, Vegeta landed successful punches on Goku Black, but Goku black wasn’t fighting at full power. Goku Black immediately raised his power a lot citing anger as a new source of strength. He was also not greviously injured, nor did he give up. If anything, that fight was incomplete. Then we see Zamasu escaping from the Mafuba and saying they had underestimated the mortals’ abilities, which is essentially why the fusion happens. So I still cannot agree on Vegeta beating Goku Black.

    About Vegeta’s other moments in the anime – He only won against small fodder (until he beat Toppo), meaning he only needed basic SSJ to beat them. If you want to point out that he turned SSB and beat Cabba, the manga already confirms that Vegeta was perfectly capable of beating Cabba as a regular SSJ, but he only wanted to show SSB to Cabba.

  • Koibito888

    …. Are you actually watching the show? Lol they literally said that Jiren was the mortal that was stronger than their own God of Destruction who was stronger than Beerus.

  • Koibito888

    It’s not. Just you said it like ‘oh, maybe he mastered it’ and that his abusing of it suggests he mastered it as if he just started spamming it right away. You sounded unsure and as if you were guessing to fill something in, so I was adding to your point that it wasn’t just an implication and that we did in fact see it for sure.

  • anonymous

    oh, I actually I meant that only in the context of Universal Survival arc. Prior to the arc we saw him using Kaioken only twice (once against Hit and once against merged Zamasu). There also had been no mention of him actually training that form after U6 arc, unlike Z where Goku specifically says he trained SSJ on yadrat, SSJ3 in the other world etc. I can only assume that he mastered that form only from the way he is using it in the current arc. Therefore I used ‘maybe’.

  • Koibito888

    You also forget the exhibition match where he used it again. I’m not saying he’s been training it in secret I just mean he’s clearly practicing it in battle. Like the first time against Hit he went up to x10 and it ruined him. We then see him use it in the next arc against Zamasu, seems to only use the normal variant of it, and it doesn’t entirely. Then in the exhibition match we see him use it without it hurting him before finally by now he can use it fully and even push it further with x20. It shows he’s been practicing the lesser application of it with it hurting him less each time until now where it just doesn’t.

    We also DO know for a fact that Goku does constantly train energy control which was the big factor that let him use Kaioken in Blue.

    So we watched the process of him practicing it on screen is all I meant.

  • anonymous

    well…. the exhibition match is also a part of the Universal survival arc and all of this happens in less than a week. Off-screen is the only place it is possible.

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Dont lie to yourself

    Go read the manga, beerus already beat all gods of destruction 1vs11 at the same time and won lmao

    Even Whis said “There’s a universe with a mortal stronger than its GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus”, thus implying not all GoD are equally powerful.

    And is been clearly stated that jiren is stronger than his own god of destruction….. 0 evidence jn the manga stating that he is stronger than beerus

    Jiren god of destruction beat beerus in an arm wrestling match, thats what they daid they never said that beerus is inferior

    We havent even seen beerus full strength yet, stop speculating like a lil kid

  • anonymous

    I am simply quoting you – Even Whis said “There’s a universe with a mortal stronger than its GoD, and that GoD is stronger than Beerus.
    => Jiren > his GoD (Belmod) > Beerus. What else do you need xD? Also re-read the manga please, Beerus only dodged them using UI for a brief moment. And if you are so confident about the manga, you should at least notice that Belmod was not even injured in the battle royale. They never even said Beerus is stronger than Belmod. So Jiren > Beerus until some valid source explicitly says otherwise.

  • anonymous

    How is it logical if it is Goku’s Vegeta’s and Frieza’s *transformations* that make them so strong and 17 within 5 years becomes just as strong? Remember that he has a full time job, a family, no ROSAT, no other world, no one to train with, nothing to train with, no boost like the saiyans have, and no transformations.

  • Ryumancer

    I said BLEACH had shitty character development. Naruto has shitty pacing. That’s why I put in “respectively” in the sentence to explain it.

  • Ryumancer

    I’d still argue that 17 lacked the resources to sufficiently push himself and give himself more power.

  • Koibito888

    Yeah, it’s just that was another instance before the tournament started. That was kinda like his final use of it before the tournament and was sort of the reveal of the results of his practice. Like we got three major uses of it showing him getting wrecked by it, him only kinda being worn by it, and then finally using it just fine before the tournament. It was a clear line of progression before we see him start using it a lot and pushing it in the tournament.

    I mean I’m sure he practiced off screen too. Like I said we know for a fact he energy control trains off screen that one we do know, and we saw a clear line of progression from those three uses over time, so it’s not a guess. At the very least we know he was training the main component of it (energy control) off screen and practicing the actual technique in battle. So how much he trained it off screen is a speculation but the fact he mastered it we saw that progression on screen.

  • Koibito888

    First off we’re talking the anime, the manga is irrelevant.

    Second as far as the manga goes no Beerus didn’t beat them he dodged them with UI and held off for a bit.

    Third just as you said ‘Whis said there’s a mortal stronger than their God of Destruction and that GoD is stronger than Beerus’ there you go. You said it yourself, Jiren > Belmod > Beerus, case closed right there.

    The anime said the same thing too it’s just a fact. Whis said Belmod was stronger than Beerus so it’s confirmed right there.

    You can’t even downplay the whole arm wrestling thing. Yes Beerus said it was only in arm wrestling but that STILL makes Belmod physically stronger than him if even only a little. Beerus is biased to himself and was defending himself, Whis was just stating a simple fact. So yes Belmod beating Beerus in a contest of strength does in fact make him stronger than Beerus. And Jiren is stronger than that still.

    How about stop forgetting and misinterpreting details like a little kid

  • Koibito888

    It wasn’t just that though. Do remember that Frieza’s training allowed his normal Final Form to fight God Ki base Goku equally with Golden putting him up to Blue. Base form post god for them is still very much stronger than everything before it so it’s not JUST transformations and Frieza’s training alone still pushed him up that high and it is ONLY because he was born that strong.

    17 was built stronger and trained for far longer. It just makes sense. Also Frieza had no one proper to train with, he trained with someone significantly weaker than him. So as far as we know Frieza also just trained on his own with none of that stuff you said.

    And yes he has a full time job but that job is sitting on an island waiting for goons to show up. It’s not exactly busywork. He spends all his time alone on an island training (because he did say he trained and that was the reason he was so strong).

    If Frieza can be born that strong and it makes his potential so high than he can train for months and skrocket that high, then 17 can be built stronger, train for MUCH longer, and be that strong. Simple as that

  • Koibito888

    Well he clearly didn’t because he DID get that strong.

    Frieza also did nothing but train with no extra resources. There was no mention of any technical help from any of Frieza’s resources so it cannot be assumed he used anything extra other than just training on his own somewhere and he trained with someone significantly weaker than him so he just trained himself with no extra resources. 17 DID get that strong and so clearly he had the ability to train himself up that high just like Frieza.

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    Show me the quote were it said belmond is stronger than whis. Arm wrestling is as irrelevant as your post with 0 proof

  • Koibito888

    ….. I said Whis said that Belmod was stronger than Beerus. Pay attention.

    Dude Whis said that the mortal was stronger than his GoD and that that GoD was stronger than Beerus. It was in both the anime and the manga. It’s a stated fact.

  • Edward

    Oh okay I was confused. Then in that case I agree. Sorry partner.

  • KDG

    Actually it’s been 12 years since Cell was killed, meaning 17 has had over a decade of working in solitude and training. Given the beating he put on Trunks in the future, and the way he and 18 effortlessly defeated Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tien, it is more than evident that they are gifted fighters. It took for Piccolo to fuse with Kami to even match 17 blow for blow. 17 was introduced vastly more powerful than Frieza, given that Trunks didn’t break a sweat fighting a mechanically enhanced Frieza at full power, but could not even land a single blow against 18 who was slightly weaker than 17. That said, it would make sense that someone who was younger than Frieza and still more powerful than Frieza could reach a level of power comparable to a deity after training for 12 whole years, especially in a universe where Frieza who lost to Super Saiyan Goku could train for a mere 4 months and improve enough to fight evenly against Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta.

    You’re basically down-playing a fighter who made Super Saiyans look weak by proclaiming that him reaching god level within 12 years (which Goku and Vegeta also did while starting off weaker than 17) is illogical.

  • KDG

    17 is not entirely machine, so there’s no evidence to support the idea that strain would degrade him as opposed to empowering him. If 17 and 18 could reproduce, there’s no reason to believe they cannot train. They are not like 19 and Gero who were completely mechanical, and thus could only recharge or grow stronger by absorbing energy.

    17 does not have to have been as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku during the Buu Saga to reach a level of power comparable to Super Saiyan Blue and other gods. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and managed to not only bridge the gap, but even surpass Goku by the time of Resurrection “F”. 17’s power during the Buu Saga (which clearly remains unknown and your claims of him being weaker have absolutely no basis) does not have to be at a Super Saiyan 3 Goku level in order for 17 to achieve god-level power by the time of the Tournament of Power (as proven by both Vegeta and Frieza). Also, Frieza needing to transform into his Golden form to keep up with Super Saiyan Blue is a moot point that falsely implies that 17 would require a transformation to achieve such a level of power. Need I remind you that none of the current Gods of Destruction require transformations to utilize the vast amounts of power they have? Need I also remind you that none of them started out as deities, as Gods of Destruction are chosen from amongst mortal ranks? To assume 17’s power is nonsensical is ludicrous.

  • anonymous

    Ok God ki again, I know we debated this pretty long a couple of months ago – I can agree with you on God ki = compressed ki to some point – However, the moment Goku starts using God ki in base, i.e. the instant he compresses his regular ki to the required point, he undergoes a transformation i.e., he transforms to SSG. There is no evidence for base Goku using God ki. You cannot explain why Goku had to turn SSJ against Frost. Moreover that would also suggest SSG and SSB are irrelevant.
    So I am going with – Goku without God ki fought against Frieza in his regular form. While Golden Frieza fought with Goku SSJ who was using God ki a.k.a SSB.
    So I still maintain that Frieza, Goku, and Vegeta unlocked transformations which make them as strong as we currently see them. I feel their base forms strengths are vastly being overestimated.

  • KDG

    Their base forms aren’t being overestimated at all. It’s not as though they are weaklings whose transformations allows them to achieve godly levels. Their power is great in their transformed states due to how massively powerful they are in their base forms. No matter how you look at it, Super Saiyan is nothing more than a transformation that serves the purpose of multiplying a user’s power. That said, the amount of power they are able to put out in their transformed states, even when utilizing god ki in conjunction with said transformed states, all depends on how powerful their base powers are. It is for this reason that Super Saiyan Goku is vastly superior in comparison to Super Saiyan Goten. This is further evident in the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is equal in power to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, due to Trunks’ base power being greater than Buu Saga Goku’s. The power scaling may be a bit off, but you’re still underestimating their base strengths.

  • anonymous

    No I am not underestimating anything – base goku is still weaker than Frost in his final form which is a pretty low power level. Although SSJ is only 50x power, SSG is a much higher multiplier – so high that it can beat SSJ3 with just a finger.

  • anonymous

    I did give you the benefit of doubt by considering the case where 17 could power up above – so there is no point in debating that.
    You are doing your comparisons very wrong – Vegeta being weaker than Goku SSJ3 doesn’t matter. He just didn’t have SSJ3. Vegeta = Goku in base, SSJ and SSJ2 even in buu saga. So it is only obvious that they would be of the same strength when both turn Blue. The only `bridging the gap` thing Vegeta did is learn God ki independently from Whis and unlocked SSB.
    If 17 was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in buu saga, why would he not appear to fight buu? do you think he would just let Buu destroy the earth? Wouldn’t Dende notice and tell Goku to take 17s help? So I maintain that 17 was much weaker than SSJ3 Goku in Buu saga.
    “Also, regardless of Frieza needing to transform into his Golden form to keep up with Super Saiyan Blue is a moot point that falsely implies that 17 would require a transformation to achieve such a level of power. Need I remind you that none of the current Gods of Destruction require transformations to utilize the vast amounts of power they have? Need I also remind you that none of them started out as deities, as Gods of Destruction are chosen from amongst mortal ranks? To assume 17’s power is nonsensical is ludicrous.”
    > What do you mean here? we have no information about how long the God of destruction trained. Take Beerus for instance, According to the anime Beerus was there since the time of OLD KAI. See how long he has been living already. A mortal – Hit has been around for 1000 years. We have no information about strong they started out as. But we know for a fact how weak the Androids were.

  • Wyomingsusnigga

    You said whis said belmod is stronger??

    Dumbass he never said that amd you have 0 proof of it

    Whis was talking about an arm wrestling match you idiot, stop making things up

  • Koibito888

    He doesn’t though. Goku specifically was in use of God Ki in base form after losing SSJG the first time against Beerus, his base form literally jumped leagues above SSJ3 in that fight and it was directly explained to be because he had God Ki. And then he went SSJG and it was still stronger. In fact the first time Goku and Vegeta on screen learn how to do God Ki on their own when they explain how it works, they specifically are still in base once they condense their Ki.

    The only reason Goku could even fight trained Final Form Frieza in base was because he was using God Ki. He couldn’t do that otherwise.

    They don’t always use God Ki. It’s a technique of compressing their Ki they aren’t doing it all the time. Goku specifically fights at his weakest purposely first to test his and opponents’ power (hence him still using SSJ3 and 2 in some lesser fights). But when powering up and holding in Ki to that level it’s God Ki. SSJG is a specific circumstance and a form Goku himself can reach which is still stronger. It does not render the forms useless.

    Goku’s post god base form was suddenly stronger than SSJ3 by a LOT just when he first fought Beerus let alone now because of God Ki in base, this was an on screen and stated fact. No their base forms are not being overestimated lol.

  • Koibito888

    Do you even watch or even read Super?

    They literally said there was a mortal stronger than their GoD and that that GoD was stronger than Beerus.

    They then revealed that mortal was Jiren so his GoD is Belmod.

    Jiren the mortal stronger than his GoD who is stronger than Beerus. Stop trolling.

  • anonymous

    Or – Beerus was simply holding back upon noticing that Goku returned to SSJ pretty similar to when Vegeta attacked Beerus for `his bulma`. Goku did attain a strong power up but that was only AFTER he tasted the power of SSG. There is still no evidence that current his base form would surpass his previous SSJ3 form itself.
    ” In fact the first time Goku and Vegeta on screen learn how to do God Ki on their own when they explain how it works, they specifically are still in base once they condense their Ki.”
    > I agree, but they still have to compress it to a certain level for a state change – I still remember your ice – water example. The state change is essentially what makes them powerful. And the physical manifestation of that state change are the God forms. They had only discovered the way to achieve this state (i mean god forms) – by compressing their ki – nothing there suggests they started using God ki. Simply put -> Vegeta said compressing the ki is the secret to God ki as in cooling water is the secret to attain ice. You don’t actually attain God ki unless you compress it to a certain point. To conclude, God ki is only being used in God forms.

  • KDG

    Whis: …there is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can’t defeat. That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus-sama.

    There’s your proof. He explicitly stated that the particular God of Destruction of the universe where said mortal lives (Universe 11’s Jiren) is stronger than Beerus. Two words of advice to consider for future debates/disagreements:

    1. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, try to avoid statements like “you have 0 proof of it.” Obviously the proof is in the anime itself. Do some research before making such claims. You might just be proven wrong, and your smug attitude will only serve to make you look worse.

    2. Try to at least pretend you have some level of maturity. Calling people an idiot simply because you disagree with them (especially when you so clearly don’t have an ounce of a clue what you’re talking about) only makes you look like a child. Learn to discuss topics without becoming so personally invested in your opinion that you start lobbing immature insults at people who are merely discussing an anime.

  • KDG

    Actually you have no way of proving that statement. Other than Jiren’s parents being killed and Jiren being taken in by his mentor who also eventually gets killed by the same foe, how powerful Jiren was or wasn’t was never confirmed or even discussed. For all you know, Jiren as a child could have been weaker than Krillin or stronger than Frieza. Either way, your claim that Vegeta was “waaay stronger” is entirely baseless and is nothing more than an assumption on your part.

  • KDG

    Not necessarily. We don’t know that. All we know is that Goku and Vegeta had every intention of holding back their power until the final round, with the intention of wasting as little stamina and ki as possible. Additionally, even if base Goku is weaker than Frost, you’re still underestimating Goku’s base. The fact is Frost was chosen as one of the most powerful fighters in Universe 6, thus he was no weakling. By the time of Super, one could conclude that Final Form Frost is more powerful than Namek Saga Final Form Frieza. It sounds to me that you’re judging Goku’s base against Frost in regards to Namek Saga Frieza’s Final Form. The two are not the same. Bear in mind that Goku had also previously evenly fought Frieza’s Final Form while in his base form, after Frieza had trained for four months and gained a massive boost in power.

  • KDG

    “If 17 was stronger than SSJ3 Goku in buu saga, why would he not appear to fight buu? do you think he would just let Buu destroy the earth? Wouldn’t Dende notice and tell Goku to take 17s help? So I maintain that 17 was much weaker than SSJ3 Goku in Buu saga.”

    Dende would have no way of sensing 17’s ki, as he is an Android. Also, save for Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo, Dende, and Hercule, everyone on Earth was dead for quite some time after Super Buu emerged. Lastly, 17 and 18 are incapable of sensing power, so how exactly would he have known that Majin Buu was wreaking havoc when he lived on a remote island away from civilization? There are a number of variables that could contribute to 17’s lack of presence during the Majin Buu arc, whether as strong as Goku or not.

    “Vegeta = Goku in base, SSJ and SSJ2 even in buu saga. So it is only obvious that they would be of the same strength when both turn Blue. The only `bridging the gap` thing Vegeta did is learn God ki independently from Whis and unlocked SSB.”

    Incorrect. Goku’s base was still higher than Vegeta’s base. This is made evident during the fight with Kid Buu. Prior to powering up to Super Saiyan 3, Goku was still capable of giving Kid Buu a decent fight while taking minimal damage while fighting at Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta on the other hand took a pretty brutal beating and didn’t seem to stand a chance while only attempting to hold Kid Buu’s attention for 60 seconds while Goku tried to recover his ki and stamina. If base Vegeta was equal to base Goku, Vegeta would have had a better shot against Kid Buu without getting utterly wrecked.

    “What do you mean here? we have no information about how long the God of destruction trained.”

    Doesn’t matter how long said God of Destruction trained. Based off Toppo, we know that even pre-God of Destruction candidates are capable of fighting at a God’s level. We can assume that Beerus wasn’t chosen to be God of Destruction while being at a level comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, for example. Also, regardless of how much power levels have increased in the 12 years following the Android Saga, I would hardly refer to 17’s and 18’s power back then as “weak.” It took for Goku to become a Super Saiyan to defeat the most feared tyrant in the entire universe, only for 17 and 18 to appear and make Vegeta (who had surpassed Goku) and Trunks look weak.

  • anonymous

    No I am not – I am comparing it with Piccolo who though was weaker, was able to hold on his own for some time against Frost. Additionally it is you that is required to prove that Goku has gotten stronger in his base form by a LOT (i mean surpassing his previous SSJ3). It is natural to assume a decent power boost for Goku, but not so much without any training.

  • KDG

    If I’m not mistaken, did Piccolo not run pretty much the whole fight?

    Also, I’ve already provided proof of Goku’s increased power in base. He fought evenly with Final Form Frieza who had just returned from training for four months and gained a massive power boost. Just in case you’re planning to claim that Frieza’s increased power is only in his Golden form, keep in mind that Gohan and Piccolo, both of whom are capable of power that exceeds a Super Saiyan, were not prepared to take on Frieza. It wasn’t until Goku and Vegeta arrived that everyone felt even the slightest ease at the prospect of fighting a returned Frieza. This is proof that Goku’s base power had grown.

  • anonymous

    Dende doesn’t need to sense ki. He is Earth’s God who should be able to track anybody on earth (he did that in the manga too). 17 doesn’t live on a remote island. Only his job is on a remote island as far as I remember, but feel free to point me to the source if I am wrong.
    “Goku’s base was still higher than Vegeta’s base”
    Not by a huge margin – since Majin vegeta was as strong as Goku SSJ2. And Goku never fought kid buu in SSJ2. He directly transforms to 3 in the manga I just checked it – manga chapter 510.
    “Based off Toppo, we know that even pre-God of Destruction candidates are capable of fighting at a God’s level.”
    We don’t even know how old Toppo is. Considering someone like Hit to be 1000 years old, Toppo could be just as old. I referred to the androids back then as weak only in comparison to DBS power levels. If anything, I would argue that Saiyans are a very special race in DB universe which is why someone like Goku was able to even fight Beerus at such a young age.

  • anonymous

    Gohan was too weak and I doubt Piccolo is stronger than perfect cell. My claim is still strong. Nothing suggests that Frieza final form (non-golden) is stronger than fat buu, and both piccolo and gohan are useless against fat buu.

  • KDG

    I’m not so sure that even as a God, Dende would be capable of tracking anybody per se. Kami didn’t really seem to have any knowledge of Dr. Gero’s dealings, nor the threat that his creations would pose to the world, yet he had no problem warning Piccolo of the threat of Cell.

    I believe 17 does live on that island, but I cannot confirm this at the moment. That said, you could be right.

    We don’t know how old Toppo is, but that also means we don’t know that he is ancient like Hit. Saiyans are definitely a special race, but that hasn’t stopped non-Saiyans from being more powerful. Gero used the resources on Earth to make two young humans more powerful than Frieza, and bio-engineered Cell who was even more powerful than 17 and 18. Majin Buu was a magically beast of destruction that even outclassed a Super Saiyan 3. The Universe 6 Namekians were capable of absorbing others from their race to become more powerful than Gohan who was stronger than Super Saiyan 3. We have seen quite a few fighters in Super whose powers are comparable to that of a Gods. Goku is certainly special, as are the other Saiyans who lived long enough to achieve forms that granted them incredible power, but that hasn’t stopped other species from gaining comparable levels of power. Each God was a mortal at some point, and I doubt they all had to be ancient to reach the levels they reached to be considered a candidate. We don’t even know what Jiren is, and somehow his life experiences motivated him to become even more powerful than Beerus, Belmod, and other Gods of Destruction. Hit is really the only known case of a 1000 year old who can fight on par with God-tier mortals.

  • KDG

    To be fair, nothing suggests that Final Form Frieza is not stronger than Fat Buu by Resurrection “F”.

  • anonymous

    The point is – you are making the claim that Final form frieza is stronger than Buu so you are the one required to prove it. I can simply hide behind the fact that Frieza was once weaker than Buu, and no evidence suggests that he has grown stronger so I still maintain he is weaker. Same thing for Goku – nothing suggests that Goku’s base has improved as much as you are assuming.

  • anonymous

    I think I pretty much summed up my argument in the other discussion branch.

  • Koibito888

    That is physically impossible. First off there is absolutely no possible way that Beerus in that fight – who was throwing real punches and energy blasts – was holding back as much as he was against SSJ3 merely flicking as his strongest move in that particular fight. No, Beerus was fighting harder than his fight against SSJ3 and base Goku was doing better. Beerus said he was stronger and specifically said it was because the God power still burned inside him. God Ki was specified as the exact reason why Goku was that much stronger in his base form. He was using God Ki in base form AND in SSJ.

    “The state change is essentially what makes them powerful”
    Except SSJG is not a natural form that you get by learning God Ki. You ONLY get SSJG from the ritual and Vegeta does not have this form despite learning God Ki. If he used God Ki he would not turn into SSJG and if he was not in SSJ then he would be using God Ki and would not go Blue – Blue would only happen if he went SSJ in that state. God Ki also does not transform Beerus it’s just a thing he always has on same with all the Gods of Destruction, they use God Ki without transforming. The natural way to learn God Ki is to just learn to do it and it’s compressed Ki and it does not cause transformations, Vegeta not in SSJ using God Ki would be him in base form with God Ki and it is. Unless you’re gonna try and say Vegeta has to be in SSJ to use God Ki which I’ll just tell you now is not the case.

  • Ryumancer

    People would dismiss Frieza’s training as some general rough environment in space. Most people seem drawn to Earth because it’s gentler than most places. That would explain a Saiyan’s increase in power but not an Android’s or a Frost Demon’s.

    If they would at least explain part of his training regimen, THEN I’ll shut up. I mean sure, they’d have to explain part of Frieza’s too. But still…

  • Koibito888

    Except you can’t just assume that. Frieza just trained. It wasn’t special, it wasn’t dangerous (to him) it was just training. What was special was his potential and that’s it. That’s what was credited to his power up.

    If you have a wealth of potential, ANY training is going to raise your power faster. This is just how DBZ itself has always operated this isn’t a new thing. If you have a stupidly high power without lifting a finger then you’ll have an even more ridiculous potential. If you’re the strongest natural thing in the universe then yes the potential is going to be ridiculous and any training is going to clear pretty much most gaps in the show.

    17 is literally that but better trained for longer, just training, that’s it.

    I get it, you have a preconceived notion that it doesn’t work like that but that’s all it is, a mindset. It does work like that and it clearly did work like that. This is the point where it’s time to accept the new information that does in fact fit with what’s going on instead of trying to loop around logic to try and justify that it wouldn’t work otherwise with special harsh training for Frieza that was never even implied.

    If Frieza can just train for 4 months and get that strong (which he can, that was always logical because of potential) then 17 can be built stronger and train for years and be that strong it only makes sense and at this point it actually would be contradictory if 17 couldn’t get that strong, it wouldn’t make sense if he couldn’t.

  • hankosanko

    why would he have to train, he looks after or protects an island from bad people and has a family. he may of got a bit stronger but i doubt he has powers of a god. so where is this training from 17 and frieza? i never saw it, did you? so does that make krillin as strong as goku since he had to go ssjblue against him.

  • Koibito888

    It doesn’t matter why he had to train, he said that he did train and that was why he was as strong as he saw him as. He was fighting against Goku in SSJB and was able to fight on par with him and then was said to have more power than he demonstrated in that fight.

    No it makes Krillin strong enough to fight non God Ki using SSJ1 Goku and he only got there by learning to focus his Ki. Mind you in a series where holding in your Ki has been established to be the next height of power already.

    Doesn’t matter if we saw their training, it was an established fact that they each trained and that it was the reason for their respective power ups.

  • anonymous

    Beerus specifically said the red flames of SSG still burned inside his body, it means although Goku lost his God form on the outside, he still hadn’t completely dropped out of SSG – only indicating that the process of dropping out of God form is a bit slower – more like how ice takes a while to change to water again (you again have to 0C from the -ve temperatures). He clearly was doing worse than SSG did against Beerus.
    According to Goku, SSB = SSJ + SSG. So yeah, Vegeta should have the SSG powers, if he can turn Blue. Why we don’t see it in the anime is upto Toei. Nothing suggests that Vegeta cannot turn SSG.

  • Koibito888

    Oh come on, now you’re just making stuff up. You have to take it at face value. What do you think ‘the red flames of SSJG’ are? It’s freaking God Ki. God Ki still burned in his body resulting in his power being at that level in base form. He was doing worse against Beerus because SSJG is a stronger form, BUT the God Ki still burned in him allowing him to fight against Beerus far greater than SSJ3 did, and in base form.

    You can’t just say the change is what makes them stronger and then make up something about how the form slowly wears out to the point where he’s lost the change but somehow still didn’t lose it. Especially when they very much stressed that SSJG has a time limit and that Goku LOST the form. He didn’t kinda maybe sorta slowly lose the form, he straight up lost it and kept the power in base and SSJ1 because God Ki was still in him that’s all, anything passed that is just reaching for stuff that they flat out did not imply or state.

    No, SSJG is ONLY obtainable by the ritual. SSJG is NOT a natural form that Saiyans just reach with God Ki. It is very specific to the ritual and with new info from Toriyama it has been revealed it was even created by the ritual. You absolutely have to do the ritual to become SSJG but anyone of any race can train to learn to use God Ki and it does not transform them. Goku specifically states in the anime that Vegeta did not get SSJG when he is talking about them learning it, crediting Vegeta for not having the advantage of feeling it first like he did. Confirming that Vegeta merely learned God Ki on his own and we saw the first time he experienced God Ki as well. So it is a fact he did not do the ritual and it is a fact that you have to do the ritual to become SSJG. Vegeta does not have SSJG.

  • anonymous

    I never said it was not God ki. It was just God ki, slowly changing into regular ki. If you are going to say Goku currently is as strong as he was when he was a SSG against Beerus, then that’s lazy and inconsistent writing on the part of Toei. There is no explanation for the sudden rise in power. Moreover that will only add to my argument that #17 shouldn’t get so strong since he doesn’t even have ki, so there is no question of God ki – so no question of a sudden ridiculous powerup.
    Another point – So according to you Frost should be stronger than Goku SSG, but he had to resort to cheating against piccolo? And what will be the multipliers for SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG and SSB now?

    “with new info from Toriyama it has been revealed it was even created by the ritual”
    > Why would Toriyama approve of Toyotaro to give Vegeta SSG in the manga? I can also argue that no one in U7 ever knew about compressing ki = God ki, so they never figured SSG was obtainable that way.

    “No, SSJG is ONLY obtainable by the ritual. SSJG is NOT a natural form that Saiyans just reach with God Ki.”
    > It doesn’t make ANY sense to say SSG is not achievable, while SSB is literally SSJ on top of SSG power.

  • Koibito888

    Okay so if you’re saying it was God Ki in his body and he was in base form then yes you just proved my point that he can have God Ki in his base form without it causing a transformation. As such Goku then should be able to learn God Ki in his base form without it causing a transformation and that’s exactly what happened.

    The explanation for the sudden rise in power is God Ki

    Base Goku has to be able to get as strong as his base form was against Beerus after losing the form at least. Goku cant just get strong forever, Goku without God Ki could NOT fight Frieza in base form. This was even a stated fact by Beerus in their first fight that there was no way Goku in base form could beat Frieza only saying it was possible when he found out about SSJ. Goku cannot fight even Namek Saga final form Frieza in base form unless God Ki was in his base form, let alone trained Final Form Frieza, that’s just the facts.

    17 has Ki what are you even talking about. And again the explanation is the same as Frieza so I dont get why you aren’t understanding that.

    No on Frost. Goku flat out said that he wasn’t using his full power. In fact another point is that was the first time he went SSJ1 again and everyone was shocked. It was literally a character assumption that Goku could not go regular SSJ anymore because he demonstrated using God Ki in base form and went right to Blue by going SSJ, only for him to reveal that he wasn’t Blue it was because he was not using his full power. Goku can use God Ki without causing the transformation, it takes a full power state of it to cause the change from SSJ to Blue.

    The big thing on Frost is that God Ki is a technique. It’s just holding in your Ki and raising it. They even say doing so is demanding, they are not using God Ki all the time it’s a height to raise their power. When Goku mastered SSJ in the Cell Saga he wasn’t “full power SSJ” all the time, he only was when he powered up to full against Cell. Goku relaxes, he fights with his least power at first to test himself and the opponent, something they stress greatly through Super. Goku fights weaker opponents without God Ki. How SSJ works also would make it impossible to use God Ki in SSJ3, Ki leaks out too fast there is no holding it in in SSJ3. There’s almost no holding it in in SSJ2 until Trunks figured it out. Point being Goku against Frost was not using God Ki.

    “Why would Toriyama approve of Toyotaro to give Vegeta SSG in the manga?”
    Why would Toriyama approve the anime saying that he doesn’t have it? That argument has no merit.

    And you know what? You holding onto Goku’s statement isn’t even valid because he didn’t say that it was literally SSJG in Super Saiyan. In fact, in the movie Goku flat out states it. In the movie Goku literally says “Lets say I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God, and now I’ve learned to tap into that power on my own”. In the anime he also describes it as the power of a SSJG. It is explained, it’s shown, it just is straight up a fact Goku learned to do this power on his own in base form as is the natural way to do so. So no it’s not literally SSJ on top of SSJG, it’s on top of God Ki which is the power SSJG grants, God Ki. So you can’t even try and say all of the flat out statements and demonstrations of this contradict that statement because the statement talked about the power of God Ki, and besides so much demonstration of it would prove Goku wrong even if he did say that. Vegeta learned it on his own, in fact he made a huge deal in the anime about doing it without the ritual and doing it on his own before Goku even said he did so on his own and as we’ve seen in the anime he does not have it and as Toriyama explained himself the SSJG form was created by the ritual and NOT a natural form to the Saiyans.

  • KDG

    Before we continue this debate, might you point me to the comment in which I stated that Final Form Frieza was stronger than Majin Buu? I don’t recall making such a claim. I can’t honestly say I feel any bit inclined to prove any claims I myself did not make.

  • KDG

    What made Merged Zamasu the perfect time to make Gogeta canon? Between Kaioshin’s and Gowasu’s presence on the battlefield, and Black’s Potara Fusion with Zamasu, it seemed to me the stage was pretty obviously set for a return appearance of Vegito. I would hardly consider that fight an opportunity for Vegeta to perform a Metamoran Fusion, which he’s never actually done in canon.

  • anonymous

    That they never would have needed to retcon the Potara limit. Gogeta would have been better in that scenario considering Vegeta’s change of character in DBS.

  • Javier Torres

    Beating Toppo does not mean that Vegeta is stronger than Toppo, this is a tournament where you don´t neccesarily have to be stronger to win you just have to acomplish the task by following the rules, that being said Toppo´s power was limited because he could not kill them he could only knock them off the stage or knock them out cold which I don´t understand why he did not go for the second option and finish Frieza, he does however master his destruction powers completely but once again destruction isn´t really that helpful when you can´t destroy anyone, as with Boo, Vegeta´s attack was not enough to kill his opponent but it was enough to knock him off the stage

  • anonymous

    “Okay so if you’re saying it was God Ki in his body and he was in base form then yes you just proved my point that he can have God Ki in his base form without it causing a transformation.”
    > I very clearly said it was God ki changing back into regular ki – i.e. God ki being de-compressed. Please do not make semi interpretations of my statement.
    “Goku cannot fight even Namek Saga final form Frieza in base form unless God Ki was in his base form, let alone trained Final Form Frieza, that’s just the facts.”
    > That would be a Z retcon. Before the world tournament begins, they agree not to go SSJ and Vegeta is still confident that he would win, meaning his base was stronger than piccolo who can obliterate namek saga Frieza effortlessly. Hence Buu saga Goku was supposed to be stronger than Frieza. So yeah – either Beerus is clearly mistaken – or the writing is BS so there is no point even arguing.
    Your whole paragraph regarding Frost is inconsistent since Goku had fought Frieza before – According to YOU – using God ki. So are you contradicting yourself by saying Goku didn’t use it since it is demanding? even after training in the Time chamber with Vegeta till the Tournament began?
    “Why would Toriyama approve the anime saying that he doesn’t have it? That argument has no merit.”
    > The anime NEVER said Vegeta cannot go SSG. And Toriyama had already said he was not happy with the execution of the first arc in DBS. So my argument does have merit.
    “You holding onto Goku’s statement isn’t even valid because he didn’t say that it was literally SSJG in Super Saiyan.”
    > He LITERALLY said SSB = SSJ with SSG powers in the anime, he didn’t even mention God ki there FYI.
    And in the movie, he says he tapped into SSG powers AFTER turning blue, meaning he wasn’t using God ki in base like you are suggesting.

  • Kristijan Marijanovic

    debili

  • anonymous

    You said – `nothing` suggests final form frieza is `not` stronger than Fat buu. What did you mean by this?

  • Larry E. Powe Jr.

    Hold on! Ain’t they forgetting about Frieza? We all know what he did in the past! What if he get his dirty sinister hands on the Super Dragon Balls?! Trust me, it won’t be a pretty sight.

  • KDG

    What I said was in response to your statement. I never actually implied that Final Form Frieza (or base Frieza rather) was stronger than Majin Buu. My statement was to say that you can’t prove he wasn’t.

    Honestly my only point in bringing up base Frieza in Resurrection “F” was to prove that Goku’s base had in fact gotten stronger, as Goku was able to fight against a significantly more powerful Frieza evenly while in base form himself. This shows that Goku’s power had grown, as not only could he handle Frieza while in his base form, but also that Frieza had grown considerably more powerful by that point, thus further proving that Goku’s base power had also grown significantly, which you claimed was not the case. Whether or not either of them in their base forms are as strong as Majin Buu, or even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, we have no way of definitively proving.

  • KDG

    Now then, if we are to continue this debate, I’d like to point out further evidence that Goku’s base power had grown immensely.

    During Goku’s first encounter with Beerus on King Kai’s planet, Goku was incapable of landing a single blow on Beerus, even while fighting as Super Saiyan 3. During their second battle, after having lost his Super Saiyan God form, Goku continued fighting Beerus as a Super Saiyan. Not only was he landing blows, but he also made Beerus actually try. As Super Saiyan and its subsequent levels are mere multipliers, Goku would not have been capable of laying a finger on Beerus in Super Saiyan form if not for his base form being more powerful as a result of Goku’s body absorbing some of the God ki it experienced using before it depleted. Goku was fighting at a level even greater than his Super Saiyan 3 power while a mere Super Saiyan.

  • anonymous

    Hey sorry about this I am currently debating 2 people on the same point (#17) and both discussions are going in totally different directions so I might mess up my replies pretty badly.
    So your point -> Goku at the end of BoG in SSJ >> SSJ3 before.
    Can you give an explanation other than God ki?
    I am asking because if he only got stronger due to God ki, the same can be extended for Vegeta and Frieza, however #17 has no sort of ki so him getting this strong doesn’t make sense. If anything he should only improve as much as Goku would do if he had no God ki and that is because as I already stated #17 was weaker than Goku SSJ3 in Buu saga and Goku did more training that #17, and Goku has the benefit of a Saiyan boost.

    Also I personally don’t yet accept that Goku’s base has a power boost as high as you estimate because I believe when Goku actually uses God ki, he is in SSG form.

  • Koibito888

    Yes but if the God Ki is not fully gone then it is there. There is no inbetween state of new Ki never stated before. The God Ki’s either there or it’s not. If the God Ki is there but slowly depleting then the God Ki is there simple as that. If the God Ki is still there in base form then the God Ki is there in base form there’s no way around it.

    No, it’s not a retcon. Base Goku should not be able to fight Namek Saga Final Form Frieza, even in Z and all Super did was confirm it. Piccolo can obliterate Namek Saga Frieza effortlessly… Where in the hell are you getting that? When he couldn’t even do that to Frost now let alone back in Buu Saga and before. That is just flat out wrong. Buu Saga Goku using SSJ forms are stronger than Frieza, base is not and was not to be. I’m sorry but Cell is not 50x stronger than Frieza that is way too huge a gap to assume. Power gaps are in fact not that huge in Z. And even if that was correct, even if base form Goku could somehow fight Namek Saga Frieza in his strongest base form state without God Ki (which is just wrong), then he still most certainly could NOT fight RoF Final Form Frieza in base without God Ki, he was using God Ki in base form in that fight. You seem to be one of those people who believe Goku just gets stronger forever with no limits and just his base form can eventually take out everything and no thats just not the case.

    ….. Okay you’re clearly not getting what I’m saying about God Ki. It’s not inconsistent. What I mean is Goku and Vegeta can use God Ki in base form. God Ki is nothing more than a technique of using your Ki in a certain way. It is not active all the time. It’s like Kaioken, just because Goku can use Kaioken doesn’t mean he has Kaioken active all the time. Just because Goku can use God Ki in base form doesn’t mean he spends all his time with his energy held inward and raised. Once he relaxes and lets go of the Ki he is not using God Ki. BUT he can then hold in his Ki and raise it, in base form to use God Ki. What are you not understanding about that?

    Goku used God Ki in base to fight Frieza, he was not holding in his Ki and raising it to fight Frost he was not using God Ki in that fight yet he was using it against Frieza.

    “The anime NEVER said Vegeta cannot go SSG”
    No, but SSJG factually ONLY happens with the ritual. It was created by the ritual and is achieved by the ritual and that’s all. Toriyama straight up explained how SSJG happens from his own mouth and the anime DID in fact say that Vegeta did not do the ritual. No ritual, no SSJG, this is a fact.

    Toriyama never stated what he was displeased with and nothing he said hinted that it was about the story and in fact it was far more likely about the animation. Without that confirmation though you can absolutely NOT assume what he was talking about and as such is not a valid point.

    “He LITERALLY said SSB = SSJ with SSG powers in the anime”
    Except he literally didn’t. What he LITERALLY said in the anime was “this is the super saiyan form of a Saiyan that has the powers of a super saiyan god” The powers of a Super Saiyan God. He did not literally say the form of a Super Saiyan God. BoG literally stated base Goku got an increase because God Ki was still in him after losing the form and then the very next movie has his base form still increased, not using SSJG, and then he goes Blue because he turned SSJ and it was the SSJ form of a Saiyan that has the POWERS of a super saiyan god. The powers of a super saiyan god IS God Ki, the thing that he learned to use on his own in base. ‘The POWERS of a super saiyan god’ is what he literally said.

  • anonymous

    “Piccolo can obliterate Namek Saga Frieza effortlessly… Where in the hell are you getting that?”
    More like how are YOU NOT GETTING THAT?? Piccolo by cell saga after merging with Kami > SSJ trunks who killed frieza effortlessly.
    “I’m sorry but Cell is not 50x stronger than Frieza that is way too huge a gap to assume. Power gaps are in fact not that huge in Z.”
    When did I bring Cell into this lol?
    I’m sorry man but I cannot debate with you anymore if you forget such trivial details in Z….
    Another thing – “SSG powers”, and “powers of Super Saiyan God” mean the exact same thing…..

  • KDG

    I’m not saying that Goku uses God ki in his base form. However, clearly fighting as a Super Saiyan God for the first time had an effect on Goku’s base power, as evidenced by the fact that after experiencing and losing use of God ki the first time, his power in his normal Super Saiyan state exceeded the power he was previously capable of as a Super Saiyan 3 pre-Super Saiyan God. I don’t think this is Goku using God ki in his base form, as that would most likely result in his red Super Saiyan God form. For whatever reason, using Super Saiyan God through ritual caused Goku’s base power to spike considerably. After all, there is a pretty huge power gap between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3, so for Goku’s power to exceed Super Saiyan 3 levels as a Super Saiyan, it’s clear that his use of Super Saiyan God permanently granted Goku a huge boost of power even while not utilizing God ki.

    As for 17’s increased power, I would hardly say it doesn’t make sense for him to improve this much. Somehow Gero managed to make 17 and 18, who are both younger than Goku and Frieza, and make them more powerful than both. As Gero is a scientist, I highly doubt he chose 17 and 18 randomly. There was likely something special about them that he was capable of granting them infinite energy and making them so powerful they made the most feared tyrant in the entire universe look like a weakling in comparison. That said, if Frieza can go from being weaker than Future Trunks to being powerful enough to rival the Gods in four months of training, I don’t see why it’s hard to fathom 17 doing the same in 12 whole years, especially considering Goku did it in the same amount of time while starting off weaker than 17. If you want to account for Goku being capable of doing so with zenkai boosts in addition to training, I’m pretty sure zenkai boosts are no longer a thing, as Goku and Vegeta haven’t gained a power boost from brutal beatings since becoming Super Saiyans.

  • anonymous

    Sorry, like I said the other guy I am debating on this page is constantly stating Goku is using God ki in his base form so my reply was influenced from that by a lot.
    When you mention Goku fighting Beerus in SSJ, the same Goku was fighting Frost in SSJ, and Frost had to resort to cheating against someone like Piccolo who supposed to be a lot weaker. Meaning Piccolo has somehow gotten stronger than Goku base form. It certainly makes sense if you assume Goku did not get a power boost post tasting SSG.

    I can make a strong counter argument about #17, only after you give me your assumed multipliers for Goku’s transformations. I will agree with you if you say #17 is as strong as Frieza or Goku Base form post any power boost you mention. But SSB and Golden Frieza are still multipliers ON TOP of these new power boosts. So it doesn’t make sense to me that 17 was fighting Blue.
    “I highly doubt he chose 17 and 18 randomly”
    > I think he did choose them randomly, considering he made 16 from nothing and still more powerful than 17 and 18.
    “zenkai boosts are no longer a thing, as Goku and Vegeta haven’t gained a power boost from brutal beatings since becoming Super Saiyans.”
    > I think they do exist because in Future trunks arc, Goku received a brutal beating first from Goku black. But later he spent a whole day learning Mafuba, and didn’t train and still destroyed Merged Zamasu’s ring, and half of Merged Zamasu’s body without using Kaioken. Only a zenkai boost can explain that.

  • Koibito888

    You know that’s fair, my bad. BUT that would still put them higher than Goku’s base form. Piccolo when he fused with Kami was specifically compared to an SSJ multiple times.

    You didn’t bring Cell into this. I did. Because SSJ Goku by the end of Cell Saga (which he explicitly explained was his max potential without further forms) was exactly equal to Cell. Base Goku would be this power divided by 50. Cell is not over 50x Frieza and so Goku’s SSJ is not, and if his SSJ form is not 50x Frieza then his base form could not have beaten him even by then.

    I did forget Piccolo up from Trunks, but my points still stand.

    “Another thing – “SSG powers”, and “powers of Super Saiyan God” mean the exact same thing…..”

    Yes, but both of these do not mean the same thing as the form. Having the powers of the form grammatically is not the same thing as being in the form. It means you have the powers of said form and the powers of SSJG was ONLY God Ki. Saying he can tap into the powers of it on his own explicitly means he can tap into this power naturally.

    And you still can’t debunk that BoG specifically said Goku in base being stronger was because of God Ki and that his base was still stronger in RoF. Hence it was because of God Ki yet he was in base. These are facts that cannot be denied.

  • anonymous

    Yes I am using exactly that to say Piccolo can beat namek saga Frieza. Later in the world tournament arc, Vegeta being confident that he can win the tournament without SSJ means that he can beat piccolo even in his base form. So I am saying Base Vegeta (= Goku) > Piccolo > namek saga Frieza. So it is pretty obvious that Beerus was wrong.

    “Because SSJ Goku by the end of Cell Saga (which he explicitly explained was his max potential without further forms) was exactly equal to Cell.”
    I don’t think Goku’s statement about potentials can be taken for granted since in DBS too, in the hyperbolic Time chamber (right before U6 tournament) Goku tells Vegeta that they have reached their limits for Blue, and yet in Future Trunks arc, both of them get stronger than Goku Black.

    About God ki-
    Okay Vegeta can turn SSB right? What happens if he drops out of just SSJ but still uses the God ki? I mean how does he look?

  • Koibito888

    Yes and in Cell Saga, Base Goku would then be over 50x weaker than Piccolo. If Piccolo was stronger than Namek Saga Frieza then he was as strong as SSJ Goku in Namek Saga and base Goku would be 50x weaker than that. They did not get 50x stronger since then. Vegeta being overconfident isn’t a good argument when a huge part of his character is getting overconfident before getting his ass kicked.

    The difference is while offhand they mention they are reaching their limits with Blue, in Cell Saga Goku has an entire conversation with Gohan about how they have both reached their limits. He states that no matter how much training he does now he wont get any stronger. Some fans like to twist this and say he meant right then and that he was talking about that they needed to rest before they can get stronger but this is impossible as Goku then follows this up by saying that if he did nothing in the chamber for a year he would get weaker – so he was even factoring in an entire year, with plenty of time to rest and recover and then train after but no, he specifically said he would have no training left to be done even in a year. Goku’s base power literally could not get any stronger passed that point and he very thoroughly explains this. Only by multipliers forcing him passed his limits (SSJ2 and 3) was he any stronger in Buu Saga.

    Goku got a rage boost but if I remember correctly he never got much stronger than Black and Black went right back to messing him up while Vegeta did start wrecking Black in his ‘you’re not the real Kakarot, I am Vegeta-Sama’ rant and ran him through a building. But one Vegeta’s potential is much higher than Goku’s anyway and two, Black still got back up and was stronger than them. They couldn’t beat Black by the time he and Zamasu fused.

    When Vegeta is in Blue if he drops out of SSJ he will just be in base form with God Ki just like Goku was when he lost SSJG. He would look like base form. He would look like when they were in Whis’ staff and learned to hold in their Ki and raise it to make God Ki. He would look like Goku fighting RoF Final Form Frieza as he was using God Ki.

    Considering Goku saying that he has to be at full power to use Blue, yet they said SSJG was a little stronger than Goku being in SSJ1 with God Ki, and Blue has to be 50x SSJG as there was no noted difference when Goku went from SSJG to Blue, that’s probably it. Blue is 50x SSJG which is a little stronger than SSJ1 with God Ki (the difference between SSJ1 and SSJG having been stated in both the movie, the BoG arc, and again in the tournament of power so it’s consistent) so Blue is a little over 50x SSJ1 with God Ki.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Similar to Janemba he could have just learned it on the spur of the moment whilst everyone held Zamasu off for a little while.

    But this is just me wishing Gogeta was canon. I knew once potara was brought back it was only a matter of time.

    I’m still hopeful though,

  • KDG

    There’s a difference: 16 was ENTIRELY mechanical. I don’t know if he had an infinite supply of energy like 17 and 18, as it was never mentioned, but there’s a difference between choosing two children to convert into cyborgs, and building an entire robot from scratch. It also doesn’t explain their fighting talent. Given how easily Gero was beaten by Piccolo despite absorbing a fairly powerful ki blast from Super Saiyan Vegeta, and absorbing a good bit of energy from Piccolo, I believe it can be safely concluded that Gero was not exactly gifted in the art of combat, so it is doubtful he trained 17 and 18. 17 was skilled enough to match Piccolo blow for blow after the latter merged with Kami. I doubt they were chosen at random.

    As for Goku, it’s not uncommon for plot to call forth Goku’s ability to momentarily match and even best his opponents temporarily during battle. I don’t think this is attributed to zenkai boosts. After attaining Super Saiyan, we’ve seen each Saiyan/Half Saiyan take a good beating or two without gaining any boost in power upon healing, usually only becoming stronger through either rage, plot, or training. I’m pretty sure the last “Saiyan” to experience a zenkai boost was Cell after the self-destruction that killed Goku and King Kai.

    – Vegeta didn’t seem to grow from the beating he took from Perfect Cell.
    – Majin Vegeta didn’t seem to grow any stronger from the amount of damage he took fighting Goku after eating a senzu bean (despite the amount of damage they both sustained being enough to unseal Majin Buu).
    – Gohan hadn’t awakened any stronger after Majin Buu knocked him unconscious.
    – Goten/Trunks/Gotenks didn’t seem any stronger after their first beating by Majin Buu – they hadn’t actually grown any stronger until they trained in preparation for fighting Super Buu.

    Zenkai boosts either stop occurring after a Saiyan experiences the power of Super Saiyan, or they have become so utterly insignificant in comparison to the power of Super Saiyan that they are no longer noticeable and thus not even worth further mention. Where in the Namek Saga, a good beating and healing session was the difference between Vegeta being almost completely incapable of hurting Recoome, and Vegeta utterly outclassing Jeice and Captain Ginyu, they have become so useless that getting beaten up by Android 18 did nothing to push Vegeta to a level superior to the Androids. It is extremely unlikely that a zenkai boost is what allowed Goku to do any damage to Merged Zamasu. I believe desperation in the face of a greater foe is what pushes Goku to rise to the occasion and temporarily overwhelm his more powerful enemies.

  • KDG

    Their fusion against Janemba was a bit of an ass-pull. Besides that, they were basically fighting the equivalent of Kid Buu – an evil maniac who destroys for fun. Janemba could have killed Goku and Vegeta five times over, but did not. Goku and Vegeta managed to botch the fusion the first time, which could have resulted in their deaths. This is a weakness I’m pretty sure Zamasu would have immediately exploited, as he seemed a lot more committed to killing Goku and Vegeta than Janemba did. Had Goku and Vegeta attempted and botched the Fusion Dance during the Tournament of Power, Universe 7 would have instantly lost their two most powerful warriors, one of which being Universe 7’s only hope for defeating Jiren.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    Indeed.

    Like I said, it’s just me being hopeful.

    I mean at the very least, they could learn it in their off time.

    The fusion dance is canon and they should think that maybe one day they’ll actually need to do it against someone stronger then they are.

    But hey, I guess that’s too logical.

  • KDG

    Considering the fact that even in the most dire of situations, Vegeta is almost completely against fusing with Goku and only does so reluctantly – often suggesting that he’d rather die – I believe it would be rather uncharacteristic of Vegeta to be willing to learn/practice the Fusion Dance in his spare time.

    Personally I never really understood the appeal of Gogeta. I’ve always thought Vegito was infinitely cooler. Gogeta seemed to me nothing more than a more mature Gotenks, whereas Vegito was his own unique fusion, equipped with an awesome mash-up of Goku’s and Vegeta’s outfits, further signifying their fusion. It’s a shame Super served to bastardize the exclusivity of Potara Fusion by adding Merged Zamasu and Kefla – although admittedly I like them both.

    To each his own, though.

  • KDG

    Goku mastered Kaioken a long time ago actually. His ability to lengthen his use of Kaioken isn’t due to mastering the technique, as it is a technique that will always put strain on the body until the body can no longer take it. His lengthening the duration of Kaioken is a direct result of his body becoming stronger, thus allowing it to take more abuse. This has been seen as early as Dragon Ball Z’s Saiyan and Frieza Sagas. Initially, Goku could only go as high as Kaioken 4x while clashing with Vegeta, and it immediately resulted in Goku’s body being beyond useless. By the time he powered up his body immensely while training during his trip to Namek, not only could Goku sustain Kaioken for a longer amount of time, but he was also able to fight Frieza while using Kaioken 20x. Goku’s ability to spam Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken during the Tournament of Power is a direct result of Goku training and becoming stronger. Remember, after first debuting the ability to utilize Kaioken in conjunction with Super Saiyan Blue, Goku had a whole arc in which he fought Black, Zamasu, and Merged Zamasu. The experience from these battles made him stronger, thus he could use Kaioken more often, with less risk to his body, as it could sustain more punishment without breaking down completely.

  • PurexedSolitude;

    No matter how much time passes, it will always clash with his character.

    Yet and still, he has done it on three occasions because the situation necessitated it. I dunno, I’m just spit balling here.

    And Gogeta for me is just too friggin awesome. I like characters that actually take (serious) situations seriously.

    He doesn’t beat around the bush or toy with his opponent, he’s there to get the job done.

  • Matthew Carrasco

    It’s actually what I’m hoping for. Let’s say Goku defeats Jiren right? Now Goku is the strongest, there is nobody for Goku to beat he wins, he is undoubtedly the undisputed strongest fighter. I want Goku to be weak after the fight collapse and Frieza to knock Goku and finish off the weakened almost dead Jiren, and then knock him off and make his wish. This will give Goku a reason to train, it will give him a reason to fight and get stronger, it will give his character a purpose to live. And give us a whole new series after the movie that airs whenever they finish it.

  • anonymous

    Of course. If Gero can make something as strong as 16 from nothing, he can make any human quite strong too. Since humans already have body parts and well connected neural networks all he had to do was make them stronger unlike their previous version where he had to build everything from scratch. They android’s aren’t skilled, DR gero studied the Z fighters all along and made the androids based off the Z fighters skills. 17 and 18 are not “skilled”, they are good ONLY because they are cyborgs – in fact their humanness is probably what even made them weaker than 16. It was Dr Gero’s design. He switched to less powered energy absorbing models after 17 & 18 only because it is easier to control them. He specifically designed 19 and himself weaker there is no martial arts skill involved there.
    Rather than pointing me to examples where Zenkai boosts don’t happen why don’t you prove my point wrong?
    My point being – explain why Goku was able to rise to such a level without any reason. They never made Goku match his opponent for no reason. Against Frieza – it was kaioken, never again in Z.
    If you cannot do that – the conclusion is “the anime has Zenkai boosts even now “AND “the anime has no Zenkai boosts now” which is a pure contradiction in itself meaning this is a poorly written anime – so there is no point in even debating.
    And I already said I need to know what multipliers you think are there for SSG and SSB on Goku’s base. Only then can I make my argument.

  • anonymous

    Clearly, limits in Z have been changing with time. Why else has Goku been training all along even before Beerus arrived?
    Gohan’s limits changed drastically in 7 years. So I disagree with you on Goku’s statement.
    I used Goku black only as a point of reference to show their improvement, you are trying to counter unrelated points rather than see that Goku and Vegeta have clearly improved. Let me explain numerically – Goku Black SSJ Rose for the first time = `x`. Vegeta and Goku SSB x They have improved here. Then Goku black powers up to ‘y’. Now Vegeta SSB y because he single-handedly, without kaioken, destroyed Merged Zamasu’s ring and half of his body. You saying they didn’t suprass Black is immaterial (although Goku did), the main point concerning the argument is that they did surpass their previous selves. Stick to the main point or else the conversation is going to get ridiculously long.
    Your last paragraph is contradictory. You argued earlier that SSB is SSJ with Powers of SSG which essentially means SSJ with God ki. Now you are saying both are different.